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Decent player= calling an allin with 6 4 without thinking of what hand range ur opponent is on
and with pott odds of let me get this right, SB 500+1000 BB=1500. SB shoves 6000
POT=7500 Your call is 5500 as you have 1000 already invested in the blind.
Your getting just over evens for ur money so you dont have the odds to call.
Lets say she shoves with 20% of hands in that spot which is a big range.
Your getting -EV to call so u make that kind off desiscion all the time you will lose long run.
This post isn't a go at you but you make a statement on a post like this which is critisizing bad calls and chasers and i think do you really know what ur on about?
Maybe the post doesnt make it clear that my opponent shows me king ten before I call......
If thats wrong then so be it, - But If you read my post at the bottom of the previous page I think its been overlooked, about my approach to tournaments....it might help u understand why Id call that.
Its just risk reward. - Very little risk, another 5k to win 6.5k? - The button shoves n the sb folds...?
DOHH
Poker is a game off odds,you say very little risk 6 4 for just over evens, your saying very little risk
your dominated by most hands preflop and your racing vs 22 and 33 only lol.
Pot odds and hand selection determines the risk.
Now if your holding a marginal hand like 10 j and your getting between 2/1 and 4/1 fair enought
your making a small risk for a big reward,but just over evens your taking a risk for you say only a 6th of your stack but a hand dominated pre by almost anything and for a small reward just over evens.
He has shown me king ten.....before I have called, im not worried about being dominated in this example I know what my opponent has for sure!!
I made the example up to illustrate to the poster that calling with poor hands isnt as bad as it might look sometimes.
I dont know the odds exactly, but hes asking me for 5 k to win 6.5k with 6-4 against king ten.
Maybe someone can work out the odds here and the price required to call? 5k to win 6.5k? - 120% return? something like that, for a race that I know is something around 64-36? roughly?
I dunno, but its not a million miles away from the right price. With a stack of 36k I presume Im pretty deep in the tourny here.
Maybe Im wrong, ur the sng specialist right? - So ive every faith that all ur saying is correct - but I dont think its ever a 'terrible' call.
in a race from pocket pairs yes
but calling when the flops down and i have trips
he has a pair of kings and 3 clubs
not 14% from there more like 4/5%
Put it in sit and go wiz its a fold.
Put it in end game tools its a fold.
Defend ur self thats fine all you have to do is say i got it wrong not hard.
The post is about bad calls and as ur a main contributer to the forum everyones taking onboard what you say but stating that play undermines the post thats all.
I dont call my self an expert and am not looking for an argument the fact is that each post gives advice to the person who starts the post or an answer, ur picking sides hes not wrong he s right why you against what he said ect ect.
The facts are fallens venting a bit of frustration.
People are posting her sharkscope stats without asking thats out of order.
Your telling people that decent players should make bad calls.
Peace out.
1. There appear to be two Kc in the pack.
2. There would be 9 clubs left unless you knew where 2 of the other clubs were.
Yes, it's a bad beat - as you say later you are nearly 95% to win after that flop - but very few people are going to put down top pair/top kicker. This sort of beat happens regularly (slightly more than 1 time in twenty, in fact :-) ) and we just have to accept them.
In this example you are actually putting in 5k to win 7.5k I think (the 6k stack plus the blinds) so you are definitely getting the correct odds to call here imo providing you know your opponent has 2 high cards and not the overpair. I agree with you, its by no means a terrible call in this particular situation.
Looks like its me nu V the majority VB!
Ur right I did miscalculate, it is indeed 5k to win 7.5k - which further justifies my argument.
Im not gonna admit i'm wrong if I dont think I am, that wud be daft.
As for putting it through these odds checkers or poker calculators or whatever they r called, I think theyre a waste of time, as Ive stated so many times in different threads. how can 5k to win 7.5k, a 150% R.O.I - be a bad call when im live? - Very live?
Its not a snap call, or an obvious call, Im saying its not a bad call, and its definately not a terrible call!
DOHH
END OF
Not even on about ur hand nemore - this is hy- perthetic -al !
Put it in sit and go wiz its bad.
Put it in end game tools its bad.
Both proffesional, statistical and mathmatically right.
It s a -EV call or a bad call.
But i agree it is marginal.
So for arguments sake a looser player makes the call.
A tighter player doesn't.
2. Even against the KT you are only 36% so you are not getting the correct pot odds to call even this. If he has an overpair you are 17% pre-flop. If you were calling 5K to win 10K you would be getting the correct pot odds (to call two random overcards) but in this instance that is far from the actual odds.
That is why people are saying that it is a bad call.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a "terrible" call because of meta-game considerations (e.g. a chance to knock-out an opponent and also to show other people that you are a maniac and they shouldn't try to steal your blinds) but I think most people can agree that it is a bad call.
Yeah i watch too much poker my bad if anyone makes a bad call i say terrible,i may even do a hellmuth and call you an idiot who can't spell poker.Just messing come on lighten up everyone.Feels like you seem to have a problem dohhhhhhh bringing up majorities and what not.
End of the day who do i think is correct sit and go wiz , end game tools or dohhhhhhh.
All except the last.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!:
Dont get narky with me....Im just saying and trying 2 stop b4 it gets out of hand.As looks like nobody is gonna back down.
Ive never sat down and played against a computer programme oir a robot, at least I dnt think I have. Im not bothered what these programmes say. My aim is to win the tournament, as explained, Im not bothered about making the cash, ill sacrifice 4 garenteed minor cashes, for 1 crack at a final table with a healthy stack.
If u play a tourny 8 times say the primo, finish 11th 7 n win the other, whats the difference prize money wise? I bet the 1 win will pay more?
Neway im calling everytime once he tells me he has king ten, must make me one of the poor players, im happy with that as long as im winning.
DOHH
Yep you go against the odds well played.
By the way it's YB not VB.
I'll take im not bothered about these programmes as you have more to learn but ur not willing to
a touch of arrogance heay.So why bother trying to tell u if u have ur head stuck in the sand.
And here we have it..
The essential difference between men and women.
The men are being men and are all trying to solve 'the problem'..
(That's not me having a pop by the way it's just what you menfolk do best)
Fallen is not asking or expecting it to be solved. She knows the kind of game she is playing and she knows the likelihood that she will encounter all manner of players at the table. She also know her own game and how she feels about it.
Let's face it..It just feels good to vent sometimes!
Fallen is simply saying that she's been experiencing the downside of playing online for a bit too long and to be honest it's making her frustrated. This post is NOT about the one hand mentioned at all..It's about all the times she's got the raw end of the stick and the fact that it's all she seems to be getting at present.
We all know how it feels regardless of the statistics or the odds. What she needs is a little empathy, a little undertanding and reassurances that she made the right move and that given the law of averages, things will turn around.
I applaud you all for debating it and bashing it out and trying to SOLVE it. But this (the actual point of the thread) can't be solved with numbers or theories and doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere.
Yes we all get tired of 'Bad beat stories' and 'I'm leaving' threads but at the end of the day the people on this forum are a community of players and friends and there should never be a day when we can't just say: "Mate that sucks, You're a good player.. You'll win out more times in the longrun and I hope your luck gets better.. Big hugs etc etc"
Fallen I hope the poker tide changes for you soon and you start to enjoy the tables here with us again.
The standard of play differs from table to table and from level to level. But there will always be bad players on high stakes tables and good players on low stakes tables to balance it all out. God help us.
GROUP HUG...
Wishing you a very lucky 2010 Lady. Hope to see a BRAG post from you very soon
xLM
THINK MIND READER WILL B A GOOD JOB 4 U XX
I take Fallens point and, yes it's a sickener when they call with '''junk'' but it's going to happen in a tournament. I know all about that because at present anyone will hit against me with anything....it's a phase that happens again and again in poker.
To win tournaments you have to understand the very nature of a tournament. There are lots of technically good players who never win tournaments because they don't understand the dynamics involved. Winning a tournament isn't about playing every hand by the book, it isn't about playing every hand correctly and it isn't about calculating the odds for every hand. DOHHH has a good understanding of the dynamics and so he will make the ''bad'' calls at times. Winning tournaments doesn't happen as a high percentage of games played. The secret to being profitable in tournaments is to win them. Bubbling isn't important (I once bubbled in 4 - $12,000 tourneys on the trot ) winning them, or hitting the top 3 spots iS important. One win will carry you through many many bubbles and early exits.
Whenever you win a tournament you will have been lucky on a number of occasions and unlucky on some occasions too. Nobody can play a long tournament of 4+ hours and get everything right. Winning means you got more right than wrong and more importantly you made the moves at the right time. Understanding inflection points and having courage to push are not the same as playing bad hands.
64 isn't a ''bad'' hand, it's just not a good hand.