You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Comments
A FEW HANDS HERE OF MOST FLUSH DRAW I CAME ACCROSS, THOUGHTS PLEASE?
FLUSH DRAWS?
WHEN TO AND WHEN NOT TO?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceCarlos477 Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £3.33 Chris_Mc Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £4.51 Your hole cards 5 3 Carlos477 Call £0.02 £0.08 £3.31 Chris_Mc Check Flop A 7 J Chris_Mc Check Carlos477 Bet £0.10 £0.18 £3.21 Chris_Mc Call £0.10 £0.28 £4.41 Turn 10 Chris_Mc Check Carlos477 Bet £0.04 £0.32 £3.17 Chris_Mc Raise £0.40 £0.72 £4.01 Carlos477 Raise £0.72 £1.44 £2.45 Chris_Mc All-in £4.01 £5.45 £0.00 Carlos477 Fold Chris_Mc Muck Chris_Mc Win £1.66 £1.66 Chris_Mc Return £3.65
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceJboss Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £5.07 djhall Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £1.83 Your hole cards 10 K dani98 Fold Irishlad81 Call £0.04 £0.10 £0.62 Chris_Mc Raise £0.12 £0.22 £5.14 grimsc67 Call £0.12 £0.34 £2.79 Jboss Fold djhall Call £0.08 £0.42 £1.75 Irishlad81 Fold Flop 10 5 2 djhall Check Chris_Mc Check grimsc67 Bet £0.16 £0.58 £2.63 djhall Call £0.16 £0.74 £1.59 Chris_Mc Raise £0.32 £1.06 £4.82 grimsc67 Call £0.16 £1.22 £2.47 djhall Fold Turn 10 Chris_Mc Check grimsc67 Check River 4 Chris_Mc Bet £0.92 £2.14 £3.90 grimsc67 Fold Chris_Mc Muck Chris_Mc Win £1.12 £5.02 Chris_Mc Return £0.92 £0.10 £5.94
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancebillybo119 Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £0.79 Irishlad81 Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £1.19 Your hole cards K A Chris_Mc Raise £0.12 £0.18 £4.13 grimsc67 Fold djhall Call £0.12 £0.30 £2.36 billybo119 Fold Irishlad81 Call £0.08 £0.38 £1.11 Flop 10 Q J Irishlad81 Check Chris_Mc Bet £0.16 £0.54 £3.97 djhall Call £0.16 £0.70 £2.20 Irishlad81 Fold Turn 5 Chris_Mc Check djhall Check River 8 Chris_Mc Bet £0.52 £1.22 £3.45 djhall Fold Chris_Mc Muck Chris_Mc Win £0.64 £4.09 Chris_Mc Return £0.52
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceIrishlad81 Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £0.68 Chris_Mc Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £4.88 Your hole cards Q 9 grimsc67 Fold Jboss Call £0.04 £0.10 £5.25 djhall Call £0.04 £0.14 £1.87 dani98 Call £0.04 £0.18 £1.65 Irishlad81 Call £0.02 £0.20 £0.66 Chris_Mc Check Flop 6 8 5 Irishlad81 Check Chris_Mc Bet £0.15 £0.35 £4.73 Jboss Call £0.15 £0.50 £5.10 djhall Fold dani98 Fold Irishlad81 Fold Turn 5 Chris_Mc Check Jboss Check River 5 Chris_Mc Check Jboss Check Chris_Mc Show Q 9 Jboss Muck 2 10 Chris_Mc Win Three 5s £0.46
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceCarlos477 Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £2.43 KINGHIGH73 Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £3.16 Your hole cards 2 3 Chris_Mc Raise £0.12 £0.18 £5.19 Carlos477 Call £0.10 £0.28 £2.33 KINGHIGH73 Call £0.08 £0.36 £3.08 Flop Q 5 J Carlos477 Check KINGHIGH73 Check Chris_Mc Check Turn 8 Carlos477 Check KINGHIGH73 Check Chris_Mc Bet £0.18 £0.54 £5.01 Carlos477 Fold KINGHIGH73 Call £0.18 £0.72 £2.90 River A KINGHIGH73 Check Chris_Mc Bet £0.36 £1.08 £4.65 KINGHIGH73 Raise £0.72 £1.80 £2.18 Chris_Mc Fold KINGHIGH73 Muck KINGHIGH73 Win £1.33 £3.51 KINGHIGH73 Return £0.36
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceCarlos477 Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £3.03 Chris_Mc Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £4.87 Your hole cards 4 8 Carlos477 Call £0.02 £0.08 £3.01 Chris_Mc Check Flop 3 J 7 Chris_Mc Check Carlos477 Bet £0.10 £0.18 £2.91 Chris_Mc Call £0.10 £0.28 £4.77 Turn 10 Chris_Mc Check Carlos477 Bet £0.20 £0.48 £2.71 Chris_Mc Call £0.20 £0.68 £4.57 River 3 Chris_Mc Check Carlos477 Bet £0.50 £1.18 £2.21 Chris_Mc Fold Carlos477 Muck Carlos477 Win £0.62 £2.83 Carlos477 Return £0.50 £0.06 £3.33
1) If you're starting out at 4NL, table selection is pretty much pointless. You might have the odd player tagged as a complete lunatic and if you see him, sit with him, that's fine, but otherwise just sit at any 4NL table and it'll be great value.
2) If you're confident in your game and not tilting then you don't need to set any limit really. You're relatively new to cash so you could maybe set a limit in the early days just because you may be making a lot of mistakes and not even realising it. I'd probably set it around 5 BIs though, any lower and you might find yourself stop/starting all the time.
3) I'd only play on Sky. If you were gonna play on other sites I'd stick to 6max cos you've always played on Sky afaik so you're gonna be better at 6max than full ring even if you haven't played much cash before.
4) Yeah there's a pretty big difference, essentially all ranges change which is the foundation of every single decision you make.
5) I can't really answer this cos I dunno what you think is standard... you're standard may already be too tight or too loose, I dunno. Do you mean for 3betting OOP btw? As a general rule we want to try to play as few pots as possible when we are both OOP and without the betting lead. That's not to say you should never do it, but a lot of the time you're gonna have a real tough time trying to make good decisions when you're calling raises in the SB for example.
Will reply about other stuff in a seperate post
https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/poker-school/beat-small-stakes-cash-games-1
Everything you need to know about 6max low stakes poker is here...
http://www.gamblingsystem.biz/books/2p2NL6max.pdf
========================
I'm sure you've heard this before but just incase you aint.... to work out the % chance of hitting your outs on the next card you can multiply your outs by 2. If you want to know the % chance of hitting out outs on the next 2 cards (i.e. by the river if you GII on the flop) then you multiply your outs by 4.
Of course it's not an exact science because we never know 100% which outs are 'live' for instance if we GII with AKss on a 2s5s9o flop...
If he has QQ (without a spade), then we have 2 overs and our spade outs which is 15 outs so we're a favourite to win (we win about 55% of the time, the x4 rule isn't exact but close enough)
However, if he had 55 when he gets it in, we now only have out flush outs and we can't hit the 9s either because it gives him a house so we have 8 outs so about 24% chance of winning... so considerably worse than v QQ
The point I'm making is that it's a good method to quickly work out the rough % chance of us getting there with a draw but it's only really useful if you get good at putting people on a range so you can have a better idea of which outs you have that are live. You might be up against someone that will pile all the money in on that flop with 89o, that doesn't mean they'll never have 55, but you're trying to work out what the most likely situation is when we GII.
=============================================================
So as a quick summary in terms of you asking about + or -EV decisions....
Imagine you have A7 with the A of spades, you cbet the KT5 all spade flop, and for some reason (hypothetical) you KNOW 100% the villian has 55 when he raises your cbet. So you have 9 outs, so you multiply that by 2 to see if you have the correct odds to call and hit the turn... so we hit the turn about 20% of the time (1in5 times). If something happens 1in5 times, then the EV odds would be 4/1.
If his raise amount meant you had to call 25p to see the turn, and the pot was already £1.25, you are getting 5/1 in a situation where you only need 4/1 to call. So if another penny never went into this pot and you were in this situation 5 times.... 4 times you lose 25p (-£1) and 1 time you win £1.25, so we're 25p by making that call.
However, if the action was different and you had to call 25p to win a pot of 90p... and play it out 5 times.... 4 times you lose 25p (£1) and 1 time you win 90p so you've made a loss of 10p by making this call.
The first example is +EV because that decision makes us money long term. The second one is -EV because it loses us money long term.
Just to confuse matters even more.... that was all based on the fact that another penny never goes into the pot. That second option where you lose 10p everytime you make the call, if you knew your opponent well and knew that shuold the turn complete your flush, they would happily call a shove on the turn for another £3 100% of the time then our flop call becomes very +EV because we make back that 10p loss and then some on future streets on the times we hit our hand (implied odds)
^^^ Again this comes down to knowing the opponent, being able to put them on a range, and knowing how light they stack off.
====================================================================
Hand 1) Fine with the flop call. I'd be under the assumption until I know otherwise that everyone I play against at 4NL is calling too light so I expect our implied odds to be very good if we hit the flush. I like the turn raise but I think I'd just flat his 3bet... it's not that I'm scared of being up against a bigger flush, although we will be sometimes, I just think he looks so so strong (even bad players will know that) and so you shoving just looks SO strong. I think I'd rather flat, keep in his weaker hands and if he has some bluffs. He's very unlikely to take that line on the turn then not bet the river, and then we can shove any non-club river on him, or call if he shoves.
Hand 2) When I'm isolating a limper, I'd probably go bigger, fwiw, the UTG guy is vvv short so I might just limp along. We aint semi bluffing the flop w/ our FD, we almost certainly already have the best hand. I don't mind raising big if you do you definitely need to go bigger, if I was raising I'd make it like 65-70p. We should bet the turn, all FDs still call, all smaller Tx still call, 66, 77, 88, 99 probably still call, if they do fold then we probably weren't getting another penny out of them anyway. Fwiw, if we raise flop bigger then we stacks are set up for us to jam turn. With strong hands you always want to be planning your bet sizes in a way that allow you to get all the money in.
Hand 3) This is just a perfect, bet bet shove spot. Your cbet should be alot bigger. People love to play big cards so this flop is perfect, they're never gonna fold an OESD or 2pr, or 1pr, or 1pr + a straight draw, probablt not even a gutshot to 1 bet, just pile the money in.
Hand 4) GS, 2 overs and a FD, good spot to lead and lead big so like the flop. Once he calls the flop multiway I doubt there's any hand he's gonna fold on that turn card so semi bluffing when we have no FE is a bad idea. I'd check and call depending on hiw sizing. Again I'd give up on that river too.
Hand 5) This is a terrrrible hand to open pre. People call too much pre and don't like to fold postflop so we want hands that flop TP a lot so that we can value bet. As played I just wouldn't put a penny in postflop, people at 4NL don't like to fold and you have no hand and no way of improving to beat anything.
Hand 6) Again, good implied odds v bad players that don't fold so I'd call flop. Turn we pick up a GS to go with our FD and still have decent implied odds with what he has behind so I'd call again. River just give up so wp.
K10, we flop the world a pair and a flush draw. We make a min raise and get 1 caller.
It's best to go for a bigger raise size. Around 3 x or there abouts.
It just gets better for us on the turn, and with the initiative we check.
The same happens with your AK hand when we flop the nuts, again you check the turn.
At 4nl, you just want to be betting for value with your value hands, and keeping bluffing to a minimum.
Defo read's Doh's thread on playing 4nl.
As for draws at 4nl, I might be more inclined to call with draws, quite often players will make really small bets, giving us the odds to call, and go to value town when we make our hand.
Well ending the night with £108.08 and 49 pts.
regged for mini, took one head for £1.88
and regged fo two all in sats for the big BH....hit me I said I wouldn't!!!
virtual slap!!!
so -£9.62 in mtt's
but +£6.42 in cash.
after the main and mini, had dinner, then set up 4 tables of 4nl, seemed to do ok I think although still seems a little quick, but got used too it a bit......how can you all do so many and make accurate decision??????????
nearly time for bed but before I go ill post some of my winning hands and also some losing hands and see if there is much difference in my play so far.......
should I be folding the raise pre???
this one I think I should have folded... butnthought that after I snap called....worked out...
Hand 1 - yep totally standard and the joy of NL4 that you get called by those hands
Hand 2 - I like the flop play, but I wouldn't be calling 3b here preflop given oppo stack size. We're calling 28p to win max £2.14 (current pot + oppo stack) - this is only 7.6/1 vs the 7.5/1 odds we hit our set.
This would therefore only be profitable if a) there was no rake and b) we always win the max £2.14 when hitting our set... which we won't because oppo will sometimes hit a bigger hand / or will play fit-or-fold and not bet again post-flop.
If oppo has a 100bb stack to start a hand then things are a bit more marginal, but to keep things simple to start with, it's probably safest to not set mine in 3bet pots (unless oppo has a 100bb+ stack, or the 3b is a really small click back that makes it cheaper to see flop)
Hand 3 - Really like this... there may be an argument for flatting turn to try and get the other guy to call as well, but after donking flop and betting big on turn I think raising is probably the better play - surprised the guy didn't call as donk bets normally mean a reasonable made hand?
Hand 4 - 67s isn't a terribad iso raise from the SB, although I don't think you need to get that cute at NL4 and can play far tighter from the blinds.
Also as per Hand 2, check out the stack size of the opposition... with only £1 (25bb) behind you don't want to play drawing hands vs him... wait for hands that can leave you with top pair on the flop (big pocket pairs and any two picture cards) and value bet the short stack limpers whenever you hit!!
There is also not the odds to be calling when he does jam, you just need to sigh fold these.
Hand 5 - As above, good to be trying to isolate limpers, but 69s is not the hand for this, particularly at NL4.
It's super rare for a limp/call to donk the flop and not have a made hand (probably Ax) in this spot (at these levels)... so again I'd look to fold if there is aggression from oppo. A weak flush draw with an ace and a paired baord is very rarely going to be a profitable spot to play.
Hand 6 - Debateable whether you should call Q9s, but you do have position. I think calling down is fair here... I'm not sure you get many folds from better hands if you raise turn, some others may think differently?
Hand 7 - Similar to the 77 in hand 2, calling a 3bet out of position with a drawy-hand like A3s is unlikely to be profitable. As blind v blind there is possibly a shout for 4betting, but I'd probably fold (especially vs Bossman... who is often forum lurking and if he's reading this, I'm still surprised he isn't playing a few levels higher!!)
After calling and hitting the best flop we can hope for, I think you have to check/raise and be willing to get it all in... you may get folds from hands like JJ/QQ or better Ax hands and if you do get called you still have maximum equity from your flush (and backdoor straight).
Seems like you are doing alright overall... good luck with building that roll!
biggest win,
this one I did nearly fold......
this player decided to go all in pretty much every hand, I snapped him with KQ
have no idea what I was thinking....
another bad play I feel, once I sort these hopefully things will run smoother,
1) I'd note anything out the ordinary straight away. Doesn't mean we have to radically change how we play against them based on 1 pot but we should be aware of it.
2) A good start is just to get an idea of basic playing styles. i.e. people who limp/call almost exclusively and do it lots are loose/passive, that in itself gives us tons of info. We can iso them wider cos they call to mcuh, we can value bet wider postflop, we give way more respect to their postflop raises cos very passive players tend not to raise postflop unless they've got the world etc etc.
3) Colours are good, more so when you start playing a lot of tables so that in the blink of an eye you can instantly have an idea of the playing style of the guys in your blinds or whatever. Mine is something like Purple = hugely 'good for the game', Green = bit fishy, Yellow = nit reg, Blue = solid/good/competent reg that doesn't just wait for the nuts. Doesn't matter what you use as long as you know it.
4) Dates are good, try to write as shorthand as possible cos the notebox is vvv small but try to get as much info in as possible, like a note of mine might be '4NL - 3x/call BTN v BB w/ 68o, callx3 on J84hh 9o 3o'. (if you don't get that lol... he opened 3x on button, called a 3bet from the BB w/ 68o, then called 3 streets on J8493 (FD on flop that missed).