You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Comments
Very happy to have a crack at answering all the questions you posted...good reply by the way, seems to ask some reasonable questions, I may have to have my crack at it later though, in a few hours.
In the mean time can I ask you another question (appreciate you did answer a few and I did ask a few). I'm curious from a market research point of view both as a former owner of a poker site and as the Sky Poker brand ambassador...
What are the reasons that you choose to play on Sky Poker rather than other sites?
can we just clarify that this is in fact true now? terms and conditions still say 2 weeks expiry for the tokens and a friend emailed in and was told by sky that in fact they do expire in 2 weeks.. is this a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing? i hope this is sorted quickly as it is now live and running
You say "It would appear that "the clever people" are trying to adopt a policy that improves rewards for the masses (most of the masses being those that play very low stakes poker)". Well yes of course. These people are the lifeblood of this or any other poker site. Without them there would be no site.
I say this as someone who will also be worse off under the new regime, I previously received a couple of quid most months but now all that I will get is entry into a few freerolls some weeks that I will be unlikely be at home in time to play.
"I do not have time to play more" - You say you average 5000 points per month which is 1250 per week and happens to be right inbetween the Silver badge level. Under the new system you are definitely one of the worst affected but I wouldn't despair about it. 250 points more every week I'm sure is going to be doable especially if you don't work weekend evenings and can play a bit of cash on the side of your regular DYM's when the rewards accelarator is on. If this isn't possible on one week, then you can always play slightly less than usual to just make 1000 points rather than 1250. After all, the 5000 ppw you said was only an average - I'm sure some months you only make 4000 and others you make 6000 or a bit more. Or some weeks you make 800 where other weeks you make 1700.
I mean, whatever way you cut it the new scheme does leave a lot of players worse off and they are never going to be providing feedback that says 'This new scheme is perfect, you don't need my feedback to make this the best rewards scheme you can, because you've nailed it' - if it was really was OUR rewards scheme then the best it could be would start at 100% rakeback and add in a few more promos from there
Obviously that is entirely unworkable from Sky's POV, but that is where it maybe required a different tone to the announcement of changes if they wanted to generate a less negative and more productive response.
I'm pretty sure the mutual ground that could have been sold to us is that Sky and the existing players want more traffic on the site. More traffic = bigger prize pools and more regularly filling SNG tables, probably with a good smattering of weaker players as part of that mix... so more rake for Sky and opportunity to win more for players.
I'd assume that this new scheme will have been modelled to achieve that. And if doesn't then player numbers will fall and it will quickly be revised, either returning to the old scheme or moving on to something different again.
If it doesn't, well Sky fails and sadly a whole bunch of people lose their jobs while as players we simply bunk off to other sites where the games keep running and (hopefully) the rake rewards are generous
I play for fun, and there is now zero incentive for me to play with Sky compared to other sites.
Having read the posts and compared the traffic to previous years.
I see no increase in traffic! I see only decreases, except in live tournaments at DTD
I have no problem with Sky changing their rewards programme! It's their Gig they can do what they want.
I do have a problem with the way it's been sold to the customers.
I respect most, if not all the faces that have posted on this thread, its like a who's who of Sky Poker!
None of them are numpties! All have more than one brain cell! I find it hard to understand how the new rewards scheme is being sold as the best thing since sliced bread, when clearly, The bread has gone stale!
If Sky want to change things then come clean, but please don't treat loyal customers like idiots.
If the rewards system is going to COLLECTIVELY reward players more and cost Sky Poker more in total then how can that possibly be a bad thing for customers as a whole? I totally take the point that some people are going to be worse off if they continue to play exactly the same games, number of tables and hours as they currently do but it has to be remembered that part of the point of rewards systems whether by petrol stations, airlines, supermarkets is to try and encourage changes to consumer behaviour.
The other very obvious point is that every day from March to September the liquidity on all poker sites goes down...it's a seasonal business. The quietest month of the year is July and June and August are just behind.
They came up with a change that puts money onto the site...whether that money goes directly into every individual players pocket as rakeback or not, it has to be a good thing for ALL players that in the three-pronged poker game where you/your opponents and Sky Poker are attempting to get something out of every game played one of the three has made a change that benefits the other two.
Surely Sky Poker were entitled to trumpet that change?
My stats were based on personal experience year on year not month on month.
I have stated that I have no qualms about Sky changing the reward scheme. it is their prerogative.
I was just upset that it has been described as new and improved, When for the many players similar to myself rewards have been taken away.
I cannot understand why Sky would expect losing players who deposit, to stay on the site when all our incentives have disappeared.
You. yourself have stated in interviews. That table selection should be based on whether you had an edge or not.
The only edge recreational players received on Sky was the reward system.
Now contributors have to achieve 50 poker points a week, just to get access to freerolls with potentially thousands of runners
as opposed to 100 + points a month to get cash back .
Irrespective of how much I got back, it was still a return I could decide how to utilise.
I apologise for my inability to explain why the poker experience I will get from the new system will be tarnished compared to the old system.
but I guess it is because I am looking from the bottom up and not from your privileged position looking from the top down
Good Luck in Vegas
Would it not be of general benefit to hold fire with the criticism, until the system has run for a few weeks.
Actual figures will then be available, and it will be far easier to see how each individual is effected.
If one group of players is adversely effected it will become clear.
I think it has been said the new system is not set in stone.
Not too bothered myself but lets put some meat on the bones before the dummy is spat.
Daggers
Firstly though as a general point I will say again that everyone who is upset and who feels they are likely to be worse off should remember that part of the purpose of the reward system is to encourage changes in behaviour. Maybe Sky feel they'd like to give a little extra to Mtt players and to really encourage Stt players and possibly they feel that certain cash game players they would prefer to reward less or they'd prefer to encourage to make that leap to the next level. It is possible to change the kind of games we play, to play more tables or to play different hours and if people feel so strongly that they want to get the rewards they were getting before and they need to change their behaviour to do that then they do have that option.
On the airline point though I would argue that poker sites are totally different. There are players who are very good for poker sites and some who are not so good. Generally you could split players into four categories...
Those who deposit regularly a lot of money, who play slowly over many tables and hours, they lose and they start games and are happy to keep games going out of hours.
Players who do all of that but lose slightly too quickly and do less hours.
Players that never really lose so they don't deposit but they put in lots of hours and help start games.
Players that never lose or deposit, who play the minimum get the maximum by "gaming" the rewards scheme and they never start games.
If online poker was starting again tomorrow all sites would start by rewarding the top ones on the list and they wouldn't bother rewarding the fourth category at all. Those people are paying a lot of rake but they do not contribute to the economy, they win lots of money and they cause the site to have to spend huge amounts on attracting new players who they keep destroying really quickly. They win large amounts from playing and do not need rewarding.
I'm not sure which one of those you are closest to but I know that every site when making any changes is looking always to make things slightly better for the top people at the expense of the bottom ones. The more they do that the better the games will be for all and therefore the pros that do stay will make enough extra to get the money they lost back. I think the tokens do a great job of encouraging more money into the poker economy at the lower levels and that money will travel upwards and benefit all.
I agree it does sound like you are going to be worse off under the reward scheme as definitely some people will and you will have to look at what you get out of poker on Sky in terms of winnings/losses in terms of enjoying the games and the community and in terms of rewards and decide what you can get elsewhere, but I would say that I know of one network in Europe where you can easily get 80% rakeback but I know almost no pros that play there as the games are full of bots and semi pro grinders attempting to simply break even and live off the rake. That isn't the kind of poker you get to play at Sky and that's because the extremely smart team that make these decisions really do understand the ecology of the poker site.
On the subject of giving people the option of joining the new system or sticking with the old the answer is obvious. The majority of people are not going to be effected too much either way so they'd be confused, the smallest of the three groups will be worse off so they'll stick with the old system and the middle size group will be better off so they'll change. Sky will have masses of extra hassle running two systems and the whole thing will cost them masses more and discourage new players who will find it complicated.
On the subject of just giving everyone extra they could. You are right, Sky Betting and Gaming is very successful and they could email the bosses of the Bingo, Betting and Vegas parts of the business and ask them to pay for everyone to get double rewards, they could also make all games rake free. They are running a business though which employs lots of people dealing with all kinds of things and I think they would argue they are entitled to make a profit...in fact they are legally obliged to attempt to make a profit for their shareholders.
The estimate I heard today was that modelling that has been done estimates the changes to the rewards system will cost around 10% more than the system cost Sky Poker two weeks ago.
When you sit down at a poker table three people can make money...you...your opponents...the site or casino running the game.
One of these three has just given 10% more than they were before of what they are making back to the other two and we have a 20 page thread where 75% of the people appear to think that is a terrible idea.
The world is a strange place.
I sort of thought these might be some of the reasons you would give.
I think they are great advantages. A lot of people love the fact that it's a UK site with a big brand that can be trusted. If you do have a query you sometimes talk to someone who mostly deals with SkyBet, SkyBingo and SkyVegas enquiries but you can ring and talk to a real person and I've found them to be very helpful. I know what it's like to play on some of the networks and there are problems with bots and collusion on a much bigger scale than the small incidents that happened at Sky recently.
I don't really play DYMs and I'm not sure how easy it is to play them elsewhere. I would say that any troubles getting a game today may have had a large connection with the fact it was the hottest day of the year and people spent the morning in the garden.
I often hear people say the standard is weaker on Sky. I do think the fact that it's a large trusted brand...many people have a standing order every month for their TV and internet and that is why they came here first and that means the percentage of recreational players is higher. It isn't possible to use tracking software and the time bank issue discourages massive multi-tabling. All of those things definitely make the games more friendly, people are gambling more and the skilled player should be able to turn that to his advantage.
Sure, it's possible to go elsewhere and I'm sure some on this thread will but my nan always used the expression "cutting of their nose to spite their face" and I think that might be what some people in this thread are doing.
If you do play poker as a job or to supplement your income then rewards are often an important part of your bottom line but the most important part is always going to come from how you do in the games. I think many of the pros that do play here did not come because of the rewards.
Great post, I agree 100%.