What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?

bearlyther

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

. To compare it to hand history databases or HUDs shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of  both what a hud is and can and can't do. It's a bizarre comparison to make to be honest.
Posted by TeddyBloat

This post nails it a hud is completely different and is in no way related at all to a service such as sharkscope or aussiescope. People can make there own mind up wheather or not they like the service thats fine but to compare it to a hud is wrong.

GELDY

Apologies for my apparently incorrect comparison. As I use neither HUDS nor sharkscope nor Aussiescope I'm not fully au fait with their differences. All I meant to say is that huds are banned. But other databases of players activities which have been claimed to expose playing styles are allowed. What are the criteria that sky use to say type a data is banned but type b data can be freely marketed on the forum?

PS I've updated the thread title but not the opening post so as not to confuse anyone reading through the thread

Tikay10

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

Apologies for my apparently incorrect comparison. As I use neither HUDS nor sharkscope nor Aussiescope I'm not fully au fait with their differences. All I meant to say is that huds are banned. But other databases of players activities which have been claimed to expose playing styles are allowed. What are the criteria that sky use to say type a data is banned but type b data can be freely marketed on the forum? PS I've updated the thread title but not the opening post so as not to confuse anyone reading through the thread
Posted by GELDY

That whole post is rather awkward to answer, nothing is black & white, so I'll reply in parts.

The "other databases" which you mention - let's call them Sharkscope & RobScope - do not, in my opinion, or that of Sky Poker, "expose playing styles", though I know Rob suggests otherwise. They show results, not playing styles. We can only infer from that sort of data certain things - primarily what format they play (NLH, PLO, MTT's, SNG's), what buy-in level, & how much profit or loss a player makes (excluding cash games). Others may disagree, but that's the line. Inferring "playing style" from that is tenuous, we simply get to know what sort of games they play, & whether they win or lose.

As it happens, Sky Poker are not madly keen on having Sharkscope extract that information, pay nothing for it, & sell it on, but short of a court battle, it's hard to stop. They WOULD stop it if it worked like a HUD, or any similar Third Party Software which helps players IN HAND & IN GAME, but it does not. It's a completely different animal to a HUD.   

FeelGroggy

Tbh don't see why there's much opposition to Aussie's leagues. It's essentially just a different version of SharkScope, but ran by a guy who cares about Sky Poker. I'm sure you can opt out if you wish just as you can with SS. Aussie also does free things like looking at top 100 'best players' that you can view for free and keeps the tally of the charity competition. Imo so what if he charges money to access certain elements, he puts in the effort to collate date, run site, etc so why shouldnt he benefit if people are willing to buy it. FWIW I wouldn't sign up as I can get all the info I need on SS which I have running subscription for

Tikay10

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

Apologies for my apparently incorrect comparison. As I use neither HUDS nor sharkscope nor Aussiescope I'm not fully au fait with their differences. All I meant to say is that huds are banned. But other databases of players activities which have been claimed to expose playing styles are allowed. What are the criteria that sky use to say type a data is banned but type b data can be freely marketed on the forum? PS I've updated the thread title but not the opening post so as not to confuse anyone reading through the thread
Posted by GELDY

You seem to have blended two different points there.

"Type A data & Type B Data" I've covered in my previous post. HUD's & a Results Database are not even remotely similar.

Then we get to what seems to be the gist of the matter.....


"......can be freely marketed on the forum"

Only Sky Poker, nothing else, can be "freely marketed on the Forum".
 
I've stated this earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat.

I was given responsibility for the Forum, & it's Moderation, some time ago, having made a bit of a nuisance of myself Upstairs with a very strong view that The Business was closing too many threads. We have not closed any threads since, with the exception of a FIRST TIME POSTER who was advertising something. And yet that was cited yesterday as evidence that Aussie should not be allowed to promote his Site. I think there's a world of difference between the two cases. But what do we want? Inflexible, one size fits all? That's not always fair. Or flexible, & get "one rule for the rich, another for the poor" stated, as it was last week in another matter.

It's not that easy, or simple.
 
We are trying to make this Forum a better place, more positivity, less negativity, but it's awfully difficult. 

I do agree that if Rob were charging for everything, that's a different matter, & if it were a "business", so is that. I saw it - at the time - as more of a community service, & a well intended one. 

Anyway, I'll have to have a think, & try & do the right thing, make the right decisions.
 
I need to press on now, I have an Update to get on with, & 2 articles to write before 8am in the morning. 

For the record, again repeated, these are my decisions, not Sky Poker's, so I won't be hiding behind them, & I'll try to do the right thing.
 
I'm a bit baffled by it all to be honest, which I'll try & explain better tomorrow (later today....).

For now, goodnight, I'd better press on.
 

FCHD

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

By way of comparison, a friend runs a website that must take at least as much time as the one in question here, but as it is first and foremost 'for the good of the community it serves' (it is non-poker related) it is wholly free with an opportunity for regular or grateful users to 'make a donation' - cognisant of the fact that it still takes time and involves cost of hosting etc and those that benefit from the site may want to help contribute to it's continuing existence and regular updates.

I'm much the same with my website. It's football related and I'm not going to plug it on here but it is basically 30 years of effort usually at least an hour a day but I wouldn't dream of asking for money for it. In fact I have been approached by marketers on more than one occasion wanting to take it over and make money off it but have always declined.

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

.It's not that much different to sharkscope in that he is merely collating results. He also adds some fun points and categories, and the hero card element is pretty cool. It's all publically available information, he puts a lot of work into producing the stats.
Posted by TeddyBloat

thank you ted, i appreciate your kind words.

they are very much the same thing, true.  sharkscope looks at everything whereas my work is focussed on the major tournaments alone.  my view is that to assess achievement in major tournaments (excluding smaller field, smaller buy-in tournaments) it is better to only use data from major tournaments.

then, because of this approach, it is then possible to produce far more meaningful comparisons between players.  leagues too.  if you are playing a major tournament you will want to know how good your opponent is in this standard of game.  how he/she compares to you.  you could be mislead if your opponents results are derived from a less focussed range of games types.  it's having a dedicated and calibrated yardstick.


In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

.I know Aussie claims you can draw inferences about playing style from some of the cards he produces, and he made a really ill-advised foray into trying to do so publically on the forum, but honestly it shouldn't bother players. He was making all this info available freely upon request until recently and few people worried about the ethics.
Posted by TeddyBloat

i acknowledge that you have a fine ability to interpret analysis and reach sound conclusions more often than most.  i have seen your posts elsewhere.  i can only interpret figures simplistically in comparison.  all the info i have i have been doing for years.  it was just over a year ago i choose to share this with others.  if useful, great.  i not, great too.



In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

.He should certainly offer an opt-out for people who don't want to be included in his databases.
Posted by TeddyBloat

I have contemplated this and how it could be done.


In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

.I've been very critical of the claims aussie09 has made about his dataset and in particular his claims of effectiveness in terms of deducting playing style.
Posted by TeddyBloat

I just like to know what is the best thing to do if someone shoves, in or out of position.  Or indeed whether I should.  I consider me to be an average player who applies my averageness in the most beneficially way, at the most advantageous time.  i know hundreds, if not thousands, who are better players than me, but I have achieved quite a lot here (excuse me for this brag, 6 hoodies, 3 Team Sky Poker places, over 20 major tournament wins, UKPCs and Punta Cana) despite being of very average ability.



In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

.I have no dog in the fight. To compare it to hand history databases or HUDs shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of  both what a hud is and can and can't do, and also of what Aussies service is and its usefulness at the tables. It's a bizarre comparison to make to be honest. I think the work he puts into his site has value and that he is entitled to charge a small fee for what is a unique and very popular and fun service.
Posted by TeddyBloat

Thanks man.  I agree with you.




 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

I mean ithe info is useful for sure. aside from the geek-factor -which I lov, and the inventiveness of what he has created in hero cards - which I admire, his cards will have a similar 'in game' usefulness as a sharkscope sub.   Personally, though I'd be grateful that there is a fun service like this. It's unique to sky and very cheap. Honestly wouldn't be concerned at all if I was a reg featured in his site.
Posted by TeddyBloat

thank you.

geeky? yes.  i call it Apllied OCD.

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

Firstly I think this has gone off topic and into another thing entirely. Namely Rob's DB. I for one think its a good fun thing to have on this Community, it must take a hell of a lot of dedication to do and adds great content. As for being able to deduce someones 'style' I think is a bit of a stretch and not that much of a help if at all true. It would take a lot of hours to trawl through the data to pick out people you probably wont come across a lot and the ones you do you invariably have reads or knowledge of them anyway. And, more importantly, practically every decent and as far as a relatively novice player should be able to interpret someones 'style' with in a few orbits anyway. Secondly, I think Geldy needs to clarify his worries a little better. HUD's are banned and as someone has said offer in game stats and in no form is this possible.
Posted by CraigSG1

Thanks Craig,

It is fun.  It does take a lot of time to produce too.

You are right about assessing style is something you can do after a few orbits.  I can do this too.  I like to play against weaker players, I don't like playing against stronger players.  No different to anyone else.  What I prefer to do is optimise my play against both.

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

Is Aussies DB similar enough to sharkscope? Sharkscope shows me a graph and I can judge what type of player I might be up against. Aussies shows some numbers that don't seem to relate to anything.
Posted by mumsie

true, mumsie.  i have thought about adding a graph, i might do one day.  it is a nice thing to look at.  pretty.  looking at numbers can be seen as uninformative.  that's why i have a HERO Card.  this puts information across quickly and simply.  once you get used to the layout it is very easy to see the numbers.  And readily interpret the numbers.


 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

I do feel a bit uneasy about it like Paul. It doesn't really affect me, I won't be paying for it.
Posted by Lambert180

hi paul, i am fairly sure you won't be paying.  that's perfectly fine with us both as you've had your HERO card posted for free for nearly a year.  I am happy for this.  It has been my pleasure. 



In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

It is a good idea from a business POV to get people using the service a lot while its free then introduce a charge. Does anyone know what's covered under the fee, like what can you view with/without it? Fwiw, I dunno if someone has already pointed it out to Rob and he's fixed it but I noticed yesterday the prices said stuff like 'was £110, now £55', this is dodgy ground cos I believe it has to be advertised at the original price for 28 days before you can say its reduced from said price. But that's a whole different kettle of fish.
Posted by Lambert180

I have changed things.  there was never a £110 option.  basically i want it to be free.  thereafter i anyone wishes to help out, great.  i appreciate all those who have offered to in the past.  I was delighted to be offered seats in tournaments worth hundreds but declined those offers on principle.  i show HERO Cards for those who asked me to.  There is a lot more too.  Best Player, Results, Leagues, UKOPS, etc all free access.  I have chosen not to display all 50,000 Hero Cards for free.



In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

I'm not putting down the site but I don't see why anyone would pay other than as a nicety to Rob. Its a good useful site for free but iirc its more expensive than sharkskope and imo no where near as useful/comprehensive.
Posted by Lambert180

Thanks Paul.  It is meant to be a focussed tool for tournament players on sky poker..

 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

Thanks Tikay and I understand it probably does need airing and any issues discussed. I just find it uneasy to start talking about this before Rob can have his say. People can start jumping to conclusions and I for one dont want to see him disappear from the site again for any misunderstandings. This site needs more contributions and people forget, as you regularily point out, that this is supposed to be fun and this adds to that IMO.
Posted by CraigSG1

Thanks Craig.

I am here as long as I am wanted  I will continue doing all of this for my friends, virtually friends, myself and anyone who wants me to.

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

I don't think we need another debate on this issue. I'm neutral on the whole thing. The advertising point was raised, clarified and deemed acceptable by Tommy and Tikay yesterday. It is not a HUD or comparable to one, so that has started a bit of a red herring. Big +1 To Teddy's post. It must take a lot of time and effort for Aussie to do what he does. People can make their own judgements as to the value to their game and whether it is worth subscribing for additional pay-to-view services. A clear opt-out option should be in place imo.
Posted by Phantom66

Thanks Phantom.


 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden : +2 I have yet to see a less than sensible post from our Teddy. For the record I don't really mind Robs idea for charging on his site, but I kind of get why it has ruffled a few feathers, now Phantom how do I clear my search history again?
Posted by HENDRIK62

Thanks Hendrik.  Appreciated too.


 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

I actually like some of aussies tables and check them most days. This has not been a problem.last year i even asked aussie to do a hero card for me it was fun. This came a problem when the site became a business with a direct link to the site. But as tikay said its ok. As its sky pokers forum it is there choice. Agree with lambert some of the pricing did look dodgy.
Posted by stuarty117

i am glad you've added these comments stuarty.

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

Could skybet offer a small contract to aussie? Plenty of companies have part time workers.
Posted by chilling

cool.

i carry no advertising or banners for anyone.  i have been asked to carry advertising for certain other sites but i have declined all. my purpose is to be a benefit to sky poker alone and the players on sky poker.  i am developing my website with sky poker at heart.


 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

By way of comparison, a friend runs a website that must take at least as much time as the one in question here, but as it is first and foremost 'for the good of the community it serves' (it is non-poker related) it is wholly free with an opportunity for regular or grateful users to 'make a donation' - cognisant of the fact that it still takes time and involves cost of hosting etc and those that benefit from the site may want to help contribute to it's continuing existence and regular updates. Dare I suggest that the site in question here could consider a similar approach to cover costs?  If it truly is useful to poker players that are profiting from the site, a decent amount of donations should be forthcoming at a price deemed acceptable to the user (also avoiding any false advertising issues as noted elsewhere in this thread). Everyone wins?
Posted by shakinaces

thanks shakin'

excellent.  that's where i want to be.

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

What does rob deserve for the time and effort he puts in then?
Posted by chilling

thanks chilling. 


 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden : Nothing
Posted by Jac35

oh well.


 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

I'll expand a little bit No one has urged Rob to do this. He has chosen to do it. Initially I thought it was for his own enjoyment. All posters on here post because they enjoy the forum and not because they expect a reward. From time to time Sky do recognise some outstanding contributions. Gary's results thread being a prime example.
Posted by Jac35

just to add, i have chosen to do this for 6 years and have chosen to share this for over a year.  i have done so for free.  i dont expect any reward.  thanks for your contributions.



 

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

There is already a donate option on the site.
Posted by Phantom66

yes.

aussie09

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden:

In Response to Re: I thought HUDs on Sky were forbidden : This post nails it a hud is completely different and is in no way related at all to a service such as sharkscope or aussiescope. People can make there own mind up wheather or not they like the service thats fine but to compare it to a hud is wrong.
Posted by bearlyther

thanks bear.  agreed.
 

aussie09

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

Tbh don't see why there's much opposition to Aussie's leagues. It's essentially just a different version of SharkScope, but ran by a guy who cares about Sky Poker. I'm sure you can opt out if you wish just as you can with SS. Aussie also does free things like looking at top 100 'best players' that you can view for free and keeps the tally of the charity competition. Imo so what if he charges money to access certain elements, he puts in the effort to collate date, run site, etc so why shouldnt he benefit if people are willing to buy it. FWIW I wouldn't sign up as I can get all the info I need on SS which I have running subscription for
Posted by FeelGroggy

thanks groggs.


 

aussie09

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

Now that the issue has been fully aired,i would suggest to aussie that NOW is the time after years of graft to take some free tourney seats at the discretion of T.k. Purely a goodwill gesture.Even charity workers receive gongs.
Posted by chilling

thank chills,

those buy-ins were actually offered by other players.  it's incredible really.  i have been absolutely bowled over by those who has been so generous not forgetting the players who have been kind enough to donate something.

IrishRose

Hi Aussie

I think the work you put into these stats is awesome - and scarey at the same time lol.

I personally would prefer my username NOT to appear in your database please.  It's bad enough that I know my own stats - I wouldn't want to depress myself further by keep being able to look it up.

So can you please remove my stats from the database?  I've opted out of sharkscope but can't find this option on your site to click.

Please don't be offended - I think your database is great - but I would prefer not to be part of it.

aussie09

thanks rosie.  good to know.

i will work out what can be done.  of course, when you win something you will feature everywhere. leave it with me.

aussie09

last time rosie and i chatted about numbers she went on to win the super roller.

underestimate at our peril.  overestimate at our peril.

best avoided.   ;-)



 

GELDY

I guess thinking has evolved since this was last debated.

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum%3adf77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion%3af65dd63a-5c17-4eda-aa1d-0d893adce2ad&plckFindPostKey=Cat:57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum:df77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion:f65dd63a-5c17-4eda-aa1d-0d893adce2adPost:d1f9ddbc-0096-4e51-be3a-b41267b9aadc

unknown_username

Are sharkscope breaking sky t&c ?

They must be using a script or some kind of bot to collect this data? 

stuarty117

Thank you geldy for this