What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?

unknown_username

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : I was using the expression datamining in the computer science sense, and quoting teddy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's much worse than posting un-edited hands. He is data mining, applying mathematical weights to what he sees as relevant data and producing a score based on this. Then he is grouping players together - giving some some pretty unpleasant labels such as whale or bully - and offering advice on their playing styles and how to play against them. I mean those inferences on playing style are likely meaningless, but he believes they are accurate. I'm kinda surprised he sees nothing  wrong with this; I'd be utterly amazed if sky see nothing wrong w ith it
Posted by GELDY

Hi Geldy.

I see datamining as , say , a website calling itself  pokerdataming.com gets people to subscribe for free , they all give the site acess to their HH, so, eventually, the site gets to jig-saw together all hole cards, even the mucked ones-when the get enough subscribers - they then start to sell batches when they have enough.

Then people with HUDS and tracking software can download these hand histories and get stats on players they have never come up against.

My idea of DATA mining might be wrong of a bit out of date, ive tried googling the site I knew that did this, but it appears to be gone.

*Edit, Sharscope and Aussie dont do this. They complie league tables on results, not hole cards. Worlds apart ethically.

*Edit 2 ,   HH are not saved to machine on sky, we cant email hand histories willy nilly.

MattBates

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : I'm clearly not explaining myself very well. I think the collection, analysis and mining of data has become too intrusive. I do not like it, and there are others who agree with me. And to have others insinuate or state repeatedly that it is due to my lack of understanding is downright rude and condescending.  All these tools (as even the word app isn't apparently acceptable any more) are believed to confer an advantage to the user, which by definition is at the expense of others, namely the recs.  SkyPoker's policy used to be market leading, i.e. banning of huds and distaste of sharkscope. But now they are falling behind. Pokerstars requires an optin to sharky to access roi and financial data, but sky doesn't. And then Sky was happy to allow a datamining site (aussiescope) be promoted on its main forum. I totally understand all the good things about it, and its creator, but that is not the issue. The issue is about the negatives. And if the data protection act can't protect us, we need Skypoker to do so. How do we know there aren't people already using a railscope on here. I could build one easy enough. You would not believe what can now be done. (Well actually you probably would, but it might be a surprise to many others.)  It is increasingly difficult to counter the "on-line poker is rigged" crowd. No it's not rigged, but it isn't a level playing field.
Posted by GELDY

Maybe this is due to the opening post!

TeddyBloat

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : I was using the expression datamining in the computer science sense, and quoting teddy It's much worse than posting un-edited hands. He is data mining, applying mathematical weights to what he sees as relevant data and producing a score based on this. Then he is grouping players together - giving some some pretty unpleasant labels such as whale or bully - and offering advice on their playing styles and how to play against them. I mean those inferences on playing style are likely meaningless, but he believes they are accurate. I'm kinda surprised he sees nothing  wrong with this; I'd be utterly amazed if sky see nothing wrong w ith it
Posted by GELDY

note that when aussie posted those threads he was mnaking some pretty wild claims about being able to draw inferences on playing style, grouping players togther based on this and then offering advice on how to play those players.

i was [and am] firmly of the belief that those infrences were erroneous, and his advice therefore worthless.

aussie however believed that he could draw inferences and that the advice he was giving was useful. i was being deliberately provocative with my choice of words there. had aussie's claims been true then that would very much be an example of an unethical 3rd party database. and i was astonsihed he was openly making those claims and publishing those lists.

Darkangel7

Geldy and Teddy, I do know what your referring to and yes it upset quite a few players as I remember all too clearly when the "notes" first appeared, one inparticular but eventually it got sorted out. That was just Aussie's interpretation of how he say people playing. Sometimes I think the notes went a bit too far. Can put what he wants about my style of play as I never seem to play the same way twice and I am always changing my style of play. Even I don't know how I'm going to play a hand until the last second. Sometime's I do kick myself as could have played it differently.

TeddyBloat

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

Surely if a high percentage of top players use poker tracker, then it levels the playing field for the"nosebleed buyins". Youre going to tell me its the interpretation thats gives the edge. i have a crystal ball.
Posted by chilling

Given tbat huds dont tell you how to play how coukd it be any other way?

Do the existence of gyms level the fitness of the towns they are situated in, or are you going to tell me it depemds on the amount of people visiting the  gym and how much work they do there?

weecheez1

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

Geldy and Teddy, I do know what your referring to and yes it upset quite a few players as I remember all too clearly when the "notes" first appeared, one inparticular but eventually it got sorted out. That was just Aussie's interpretation of how he say people playing. Sometimes I think the notes went a bit too far. Can put what he wants about my style of play as I never seem to play the same way twice and I am always changing my style of play. Even I don't know how I'm going to play a hand until the last second. Sometime's I do kick myself as could have played it differently.
Posted by Darkangel7

lol me too

TeddyBloat

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

Sounds to me the only people guaranteed to make a profit from poker trackers and huds , are the peeps that sell them. Gold rush and spades.
Posted by chilling

very apt analogy.

unless you are prepared to put in a lot of work in finding out where the gold is and are actually using your tool correctly you are merely a man in a random field holding the wrong end of a shovel hoping to get rich quick.

suzy666

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : note that when aussie posted those threads he was mnaking some pretty wild claims about being able to draw inferences on playing style, grouping players togther based on this and then offering advice on how to play those players. i was [and am] firmly of the belief that those infrences were erroneous, and his advice therefore worthless. aussie however believed that he could draw inferences and that the advice he was giving was useful. i was being deliberately provocative with my choice of words there. had aussie's claims been true then that would very much be an example of an unethical 3rd party database. and i was astonsihed he was openly making those claims and publishing those lists.
Posted by TeddyBloat

so was I, I complained to customer service and got told where to go, over week later.

suzy666

at that point in time it would have been a good idea if someone from sky found out exactly what aussies intentions were/and or a mod had a stern word about the nature of his posts but it was left unchecked.

hence my comments about sky allowing this to happen.

As TK has just said, he is unhappy that sharky take the ROI info etc and sell it on.

I wonder if the aussie site was attempting to do just that, but as soon as I suggested it might be on the way, several people here suggested that wasn't likely to happen.

FWIW as its been raised, I think the way aussie coalates his data is by dropping the results thread lobbies into excel and using a program to pull the data together (such as kmine), its not hard to do but time consuming to do each tournament 1 by 1.

Lambert180

Genuinely baffled this thread is still going on, I didn't think there was any more that could be said about it.

I just wanted to post cos I've seen a few posts reference 'multiple regs who aren't against aussie's site' and sometimes included me in that list. Originally I thought it was a bit questionable posting it up on the forum now that he's charging for it, although he seemed to agree early in the thread to stop posting links. 

I don't have anything against the fundamental idea of the site though, and think its good fun... I don't think it's particularly useful from a strategic POV but it's good fun.

Fwiw, when I said something like 'it doesnt affect me, I won't be buying it', that wasn't a dig at the site, I think it's a decent site and I do have the occasional peek, I'm just realllly tight lol so I wouldn't pay for it unless I felt it was reallly good value for money. I won't even pay for sharkscope even though I love it 

Cliffs imo:

*Some people don't like that Rob data-mines MTT results.

*Data-mining MTT results and putting them into pretty tables is perfectly legal.

*Whether he posts them on the forum or not, Rob is gonna continue running his site.

*Rob could stop posting links (or updates at all) on the forum but as others have mentioned, that'd just reduce even more so the number of people that are aware of the site, so in some people eye's, increase the edge the people have who know about it.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:

at that point in time it would have been a good idea if someone from sky found out exactly what aussies intentions were/and or a mod had a stern word about the nature of his posts but it was left unchecked. hence my comments about sky allowing this to happen. As TK has just said, he is unhappy that sharky take the ROI info etc and sell it on. I wonder if the aussie site was attempting to do just that, but as soon as I suggested it might be on the way, several people here suggested that wasn't likely to happen. FWIW as its been raised, I think the way aussie coalates his data is by dropping the results thread lobbies into excel and using a program to pull the data together (such as kmine), its not hard to do but time consuming to do each tournament 1 by 1.
Posted by suzy666

Hi Suzy,

As I've explained earlier in the threads, twice, Sky Poker delegated the matter of what was or was not acceptable on the Community to me, so it was my decision, & I never delayed any actions.

I may have made a bad call, I acknowledge that, but that's a subjective opinion. I remain of the view that at the time it was the correct thing, all things considered. (I have explained those factors).

Circumstances did change later, of course, I accept that, & I was not comfortable with the "whale" thing, & I was unaware until the last week or 10 days that a pay option had been made available for the Bumper Bundle Super Duper package.

It all appears to be academic now, so I hope we can move on. 

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.      

aussie09

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