In Response to Re: Donk retires from playing Heads-up [EvilPingu's Diary] : The set of 4s v AQ on KJ4 where I tried to make you fold and it didn't work? :P Posted by EvilPingu
In Response to Re: Donk retires from playing Heads-up [EvilPingu's Diary] : Idk, probably - definitely playing like a donk anyway... Posted by EvilPingu
Bluff made sense but bet to 18 prob would have done the trick and prob looks stronger.
Replying to post on first page of thread, on finding it easier to play strong players.
The way to make money at poker is to play people you are SUBSTANTIALLY better than.If your aim is to to make money from poker, then try to avoid playing.people who are
A Better than you
b About even.
c Marginally worse
Unless you are the elite of the elite of poker player,and the rake is low in proportion to the stakes, you will not have enough or an edge to overcome rake against very good players, FACT.
Learn how to identify weak players, isolate them, get detailed information on how they play and and exploit their weaknesses. (Ideally through the use or Holdem manager and a HUD).
If you are struggling playing weaker players, then spend alot of time analysing why.If they are calling you with a weak range pre. on the flop, and on the turn then bluff more flops. Bluff turns and rivers almost every time overcards to the flop arrive(betting whether or not you have hit the overcard to stay balanced )
If they keep calling you down to the river, tighten your range against them pre, and bet a value heavy range through the streets and value bet al little thinner on the river.. If and when they adjust, you adjust and stay one step ahead.
If they are very loose aggressive and three bet you alot. they may not fold very often to four bet bluffs. and when they have the betting lead may bet down the streets with a very bluff heavy range.Once again tighten your opening range pre against them. Four bet a little thinner for value.If their is a late position raise from you call their three bets with high broadway cards, particularly suited and call down. Perhaps even limp call with small or medium pocket pairs against them, if they are three betting you very wide and will not fold to 4 bets very often You can then trap with sets on fairly dry boards if they bluff down through the streets with a very high frequency,and perhaps call down with your pocket pair if their bluffing frequency is high enough to justify this.
Weaker players and either too passive, too tight or too loose. Strong players will be fairly balanced and therefore difficult to exploit.
Pay very close attention to the weaker players and avoid playing too many pots with the stronger players. (Although you should still pay close attention to the stronger players if you cant avoid playing them.) These weaker player are your target market and are the players it is possible to make a profit from. Gathering alot of information on them and knowing how to exploit their weaknesses is key
By the way never play very strong players heads up as a learning excerise. This is burning money, as these strong players will usually be playing at least medium stakes to maximise their edge over weaker players, it could be burning a lot of money. You will learn a lot more by watching training videos of very strong players taking you through their taught process in hands step by step, for a very small fraction of the price. Players with big ego's may try to justify playing very strong players for learning purposes, however this is totally illogical in the internet age in particular and with the availability of training videos Only play very strong players heads up, when your money is not at risk
Re: Post above - Completely changed my opinion on not wanting to play bad players now. Bad players = Print £££.
I'd argue there is still situations where you don't want bad players, but then you just do your best not to get into situation in the first place. But like, 99.9% of the time, you want to be against bad players.
In Response to Re: Donk retires from playing Heads-up [EvilPingu's Diary] : Bluff made sense but bet to 18 prob would have done the trick and prob looks stronger. But then I have no idea what Im talking about. Posted by Spad3s
I meant I was playing like a donk, not you, lol. I'm a massive fish HU )
Agree a smaller bet looks stronger in hindsight, never going to work anyway as you had a set, but would've saved me ~£30.
I also need to learn that I shouldn't feel obliged to play everyone who sits at a table with me HU. Feels like I'm being a jerk if I snap sit out all the time and don't play anyone, but at the same time, playing regs when I'm a HU fish = bad.
In Response to Re: Donk retires from playing Heads-up [EvilPingu's Diary] : I'm not sure donated is the right word!!! Having to put a buy in in w/A9high down 3 streets isn't easy, you just chose to bluff a fish that never folds! Your line should work most of the time. Feel free to post the hand, brags/advertising etc Posted by DOHHHHHHH
True, but bluffing a fish that never folds when I'm a fish that never has a hand isn't a good combination
Prior to your roller bink I wud probably have folded A9 pre flop to any sort of aggressive action from youeven HU.
You've created a great image for yourself (used 865 and this diary well to do so), I did a similar thing when I first joined sky, made everyone think I was a crazy agro spew munki.
You prob have to learn to manage your image abit now though, being aware of your own image at the table is important imo.
Reckon u will have a bigger roll and be playing higher than me within 6 months anyway, don't give up on HU too soon, you could/will crush.
Prior to your roller bink I wud probably have folded A9 pre flop to any sort of aggressive action from youeven HU. You've created a great image for yourself (used 865 and this diary well to do so), I did a similar thing when I first joined sky, made everyone think I was a crazy agro spew munki. You prob have to learn to manage your image abit now though, being aware of your own image at the table is important imo. Reckon u will have a bigger roll and be playing higher than me within 6 months anyway, don't give up on HU too soon, you could/will crush. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
You are a crazy agro spew munky Mr 63 off man. Pingu one bit of advice I would give you about hu is keep notes about styles/Pushing ranges. Most players wont adapt game to game which makes them exploitable. Im only finding this out after a downswing from +3k to-3k but leaks are being plugged cash is easier to beat at NL40 if you are solid.
Prior to your roller bink I wud probably have folded A9 pre flop to any sort of aggressive action from youeven HU. You've created a great image for yourself (used 865 and this diary well to do so), I did a similar thing when I first joined sky, made everyone think I was a crazy agro spew munki. You prob have to learn to manage your image abit now though, being aware of your own image at the table is important imo. Reckon u will have a bigger roll and be playing higher than me within 6 months anyway, don't give up on HU too soon, you could/will crush. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
I'm amazed anyone would fold A9 vs. me ever, never mind HU - Plays brilliantly against my 7-bet range of AA, K9, and 72 double soooted.
I've made everyone think I was a 'crazy agro spew munki' because I actually am, lol. Tbh though, agree that managing my image is vital - There was a hand recently on TV where I was in the big blind with 84o, blind vs. blind, called in the big blind, floated the flop with 8 high then took the pot away on the turn. In reality, I'm very rarely turning up with a hand with absolutely no equity such as 84o in that spot. However, if people think every time I call pre-flop in the big blind, float the flop then bet the turn, I have 8 high, then brilliant. Adapt my game based on that and print money (hopefully).
There was also a hand on a regular table, not sure if I posted it in here or not, button vs. blind, I managed to get 100bb all in pre with AJ and got called by 77. If my opponent thinks 4-betting that hand then calling off another £38 to win a £100 pot profitable, then fair enough. The fact that this reg has now seen me 5-bet all in against his button raise with AJ, plus my image from the telly, definitely helps to create an interesting dynamic between us, and shows that being on the telly and getting a loose image is working. The important thing for me is learning how to use that image to my advantage.
Will consider an Afridi-esque return to HU, probably same time next week when I see someone with T3 hitting trips and winning a monster pot and think "That looks fun" :P
Off to bed now, will be back this evening to reply to any posts - Will be @ 30/40NL tables this evening with fishing rods out too
Prior to your roller bink I wud probably have folded A9 pre flop to any sort of aggressive action from youeven HU. You've created a great image for yourself (used 865 and this diary well to do so), I did a similar thing when I first joined sky, made everyone think I was a crazy agro spew munki. You prob have to learn to manage your image abit now though, being aware of your own image at the table is important imo. Reckon u will have a bigger roll and be playing higher than me within 6 months anyway, don't give up on HU too soon, you could/will crush. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
+1
And don't play HU )
Just stay stable Pingu, you have 40 bins for NL50 - is this enough for a level you have not beaten - wish you well but don't get carried away - you will turn round and suddenly half of it will be gone (
all the best
BRM PINGU BRM /)
on a side note, you want to be playing people where you have an edge If you have no edge then it's just not worth it long term
Regarding image, yeah your just going to be looked up now more often, take advantage of this ) i
In Response to Re: Donk retires from playing Heads-up [EvilPingu's Diary] : You are a crazy agro spew munky Mr 63 off man. Pingu one bit of advice I would give you about hu is keep notes about styles/Pushing ranges. Most players wont adapt game to game which makes them exploitable. Im only finding this out after a downswing from +3k to-3k but leaks are being plugged cash is easier to beat at NL40 if you are solid. Posted by ACEGOONER
Yeah, definitely noticed this when playing the Hypers - People would play the same in the 4th game as in the 1st game, which if people stopped quitting once I beat them once, would be very exploitable. Just have to follow them around the lobby next time.
In Response to Re: Donk retires from playing Heads-up [EvilPingu's Diary] : +1 And don't play HU ) Just stay stable Pingu, you have 40 bins for NL50 - is this enough for a level you have not beaten - wish you well but don't get carried away - you will turn round and suddenly half of it will be gone ( all the best BRM PINGU BRM /) on a side note, you want to be playing people where you have an edge If you have no edge then it's just not worth it long term Regarding image, yeah your just going to be looked up now more often, take advantage of this ) i Posted by rancid
Yeah, definitely no more 50NL for me for a while. If you take out the HU last night, I've played like, 7k hands and made £4 profit, couldn't get much more break even than that if I tried. Going to step down to either 30NL or 40NL tonight, depends how many fish are playing @ 40NL, and hopefully stop throwing money away :P
As you say, need to get used to being called more often, and adapt to it.
Oi Donk, er i mean EvilPingu, you'r 18 right? man i wish i had started playing poker and had you'r roll to play with at that age, don't let some losses get you down, just get better!
If i was you now i would play 6-8 /> tables on 20NL, and aim to beat it; to build confidence, better to learn from lower levels than at higher when the losses have greater affect esp when it can create conflict with family life, to whatever you do m8 GL.
Just stay stable Pingu, you have 40 bins for NL50 - is this enough for a level you have not beaten - wish you well but don't get carried away - you will turn round and suddenly half of it will be gone (
Oi Donk, er i mean EvilPingu, you'r 18 right? man i wish i had started playing poker and had you'r roll to play with at that age, don't let some losses get you down, just get better!If i was you now i would play 6-8 /> tables on 20NL, and aim to beat it; to build confidence, better to learn from lower levels than at higher when the losses have greater affect esp when it can create conflict with family life, to whatever you do m8 GL. Posted by WHOAMI196
Tried 40NL, got fed up with it as nobody seemed to want to have more than 2 tables running at this level. C'mon people, if you want fish to join, you have to actually start tables, fish won't sit on a waiting list for ages, they'll just go play somewhere else. I'll probably play a lower level and pretend 40NL doesn't exist as I can't really be bothered starting tables, getting fish to join then getting a load of regs snap sitting once the fish joins, then the table breaking again once the fish loses their tenner.
</rant>
Didn't help my mood much either when every fish hitting their gutshot, calling down with 28th pair when I had the bottom of my range, then getting a walk every time I picked up a premium hand. Lost about a million buy-ins, although one of them was down to me playing AK horrifically bad, turning my hand face up and basically saying "Shove if you have me beat", getting shoved on, then still snap calling. -_- So yeah, 40NL session went badly, played, like, my Z-game and paid for that.
Got fed up with 40NL, opened up 9 x 20NL tables, won £24. Entered the main and mini tonight - Proper tournaments, not a Bounty crapshoot, but didn't cash Had another 20NL session before midnight which was going well - Too well for Sky's liking, must've seen what was going on and cranked up the rig-o-meter at the end :P
4 x 40NL, -£94.38
9 x 20NL, +£23.97
9 x 20NL, +£21.32, sick cooler from this session too, can't not post it ) See below.
£11 Rebuy Open (1 Rebuy(s), 1 addon), 80/330
£3.30 Mini Open, 361/391, flopped 2 pair vs limper, limper flopped a set >_>
Oi Donk, er i mean EvilPingu, you'r 18 right? man i wish i had started playing poker and had you'r roll to play with at that age, don't let some losses get you down, just get better! If i was you now i would play 6-8 /> tables on 20NL, and aim to beat it; to build confidence, better to learn from lower levels than at higher when the losses have greater affect esp when it can create conflict with family life, to whatever you do m8 GL. Posted by WHOAMI196
Pretty much did this, dropped down to 20NL today and played 9 tables. Unlike multi-tabling DYMs where I'm usually open shoving, and as a result I don't actually have to remember what happened, I'm finding it a challenge to remember what I did pre-flop sometimes, I see I'm in a 3 way pot with AT on the button and I'm like, "Was I the initial raiser here?" - Takes me a couple of seconds to work out that I did infact open raise pre-flop and I'm supposed to c-bet. Will get used to it soon enough. Wouldn't be surprised if there's one or two really random donk leads when I go back through my hand history though )
Found the games quite soft tbh. Not sure how much of that is just 'cause it's Friday and there's a ton of recreational players online, or because I'm stepping down from 50NL where the games are obviously much tougher. In the most un-arrogant (is that a word?) way possible, 20NL should be quite easy to beat.
Yes 20 nl would be easy to beat if your AK holds up against AQs. A good illustration of your image working for you i think, all in pre with AQ is not something i do at all routinely. unlucky.
Yes 20 nl would be easy to beat if your AK holds up against AQs. A good illustration of your image working for you i think, all in pre with AQ is not something i do at all routinely. unlucky. Posted by simonnatur
To be fair, if you're AIPF with AQ, I'm probably the right player to do it against. And I also got all my money in pre twice with AQ against AK in the session and won both times, so it probably evened itself out a bit with that hand :P
In Response to Re: Donk retires from playing Heads-up [EvilPingu's Diary] : To be fair, if you're AIPF with AQ, I'm probably the right player to do it against. And I also got all my money in pre twice with AQ against AK in the session and won both times, so it probably evened itself out a bit with that hand :P Posted by EvilPingu
Keep in mind that poker is a marathon not a sprint. I would recommend sticking at the very lowest stakes. even if you are comfortably bankrolled for the higher stakes.
Learn to master the cash game before putting significant sums of money at risk. It can be very tempting to play higher stakes after winning a tournament. however ideally you want to be bankrolling your cash game with cash winnings. This will show you that you are mastering the cash game, as long as you are showing a profit over a very large sample size eg between 50,000 and 100,000 hands maybe more Playing high stakes is over-rated. The most important things are, to enjoy playing, and play well.
I would suggest that you focus the vast majority of your poker efforts on cash, as this is the form of poker where the biggest edges exist.But learn from training videos and playing very low stakes. After you have gained experience in 6 max games then you could venture into heads up cash. STRICT TABLE SELECTION OF COURSE.
If you crave variety in your poker then I would suggest learning the different forms of cash poker ie NL PLO PLO8 etc. This will provide you with huge variety and stimulation.
You can also stir things up with occasional tournament entries, if the tournament is particularly valuable, ideally through satellites, in particular for the world series main event, for a good player this event is offers great potential value. ALWAYS KEEPING IN MIND BANKROLL MANAGEMENT OF COURSE.
Well done on your success so far. Keep in mind that poker is a marathon not a sprint. I would recommend sticking at the very lowest stakes. even if you are comfortably bankrolled for the higher stakes. Learn to master the cash game before putting significant sums of money at risk. It can be very tempting to play higher stakes after winning a tournament. however ideally you want to be bankrolling your cash game with cash winnings. This will show you that you are mastering the cash game, as long as you are showing a profit over a very large sample size eg between 50,000 and 100,000 hands maybe more Playing high stakes is over-rated. The most important things are, to enjoy playing, and play well. I would suggest that you focus the vast majority of your poker efforts on cash, as this is the form of poker where the biggest edges exist.But learn from training videos and playing very low stakes. After you have gained experience in 6 max games then you could venture into heads up cash. STRICT TABLE SELECTION OF COURSE. If you crave variety in your poker then I would suggest learning the different forms of cash poker ie NL PLO PLO8 etc. This will provide you with huge variety and stimulation. You can also stir things up with occasional tournament entries, if the tournament is particularly valuable, ideally through satellites, in particular for the world series main event, for a good player this event is offers great potential value. ALWAYS KEEPING IN MIND BANKROLL MANAGEMENT OF COURSE. GL. Posted by Fabraclass
Dont know who you are mate but i am guessing you are very successful at this game because reading through your posts you speak alot of sense.
Alot of players read pingus diary and like myself alot of them are new to the game and trying to improve and posts like yours help alot of others aswell as pingu himself.
Thanks for your input and please keep it coming
Also best of luck pingu mate and im sure its just a matter of time before that roll starts going up again
What is a downswing - I am on one myself - just chewed through £200 @ NL10/20 very easily and done nothing wrong
If you have a swingy game then you can easily swing +/- 4-6 bins per session
When you play a BRM of 40 bins then you need a good start, if you don't get that good start and continue then you have to drop down - earn your crust at NL20 and then move on - When things are going well, BRM doesn't seem like an issue - when you run bad then you really start to feel the pinch
Cash poker is about the longevity not short term success
Found a mistake on my spreadsheet, which means I'm actually a pound better off than I thought I was, so my £700 hole is actually a £699 hole. Every cloud... :P
Getting more comfortable with multi-tabling cash now, and the recovery is underway, it would seem.
Comments
Yeah, were you tilting?, off allin I thought.
Bluff made sense but bet to 18 prob would have done the trick and prob looks stronger.
But then I have no idea what Im talking about.
The way to make money at poker is to play people you are SUBSTANTIALLY better than.If your aim is to to make money from poker, then try to avoid playing.people who are
A Better than you
b About even.
c Marginally worse
Unless you are the elite of the elite of poker player,and the rake is low in proportion to the stakes, you will not have enough or an edge to overcome rake against very good players, FACT.
Learn how to identify weak players, isolate them, get detailed information on how they play and and exploit their weaknesses. (Ideally through the use or Holdem manager and a HUD).
If you are struggling playing weaker players, then spend alot of time analysing why.If they are calling you with a weak range pre. on the flop, and on the turn then bluff more flops. Bluff turns and rivers almost every time overcards to the flop arrive(betting whether or not you have hit the overcard to stay balanced )
If they keep calling you down to the river, tighten your range against them pre, and bet a value heavy range through the streets and value bet al little thinner on the river.. If and when they adjust, you adjust and stay one step ahead.
If they are very loose aggressive and three bet you alot. they may not fold very often to four bet bluffs. and when they have the betting lead may bet down the streets with a very bluff heavy range.Once again tighten your opening range pre against them. Four bet a little thinner for value.If their is a late position raise from you call their three bets with high broadway cards, particularly suited and call down. Perhaps even limp call with small or medium pocket pairs against them, if they are three betting you very wide and will not fold to 4 bets very often You can then trap with sets on fairly dry boards if they bluff down through the streets with a very high frequency,and perhaps call down with your pocket pair if their bluffing frequency is high enough to justify this.
Weaker players and either too passive, too tight or too loose. Strong players will be fairly balanced and therefore difficult to exploit.
Pay very close attention to the weaker players and avoid playing too many pots with the stronger players. (Although you should still pay close attention to the stronger players if you cant avoid playing them.) These weaker player are your target market and are the players it is possible to make a profit from. Gathering alot of information on them and knowing how to exploit their weaknesses is key
By the way never play very strong players heads up as a learning excerise. This is burning money, as these strong players will usually be playing at least medium stakes to maximise their edge over weaker players, it could be burning a lot of money. You will learn a lot more by watching training videos of very strong players taking you through their taught process in hands step by step, for a very small fraction of the price. Players with big ego's may try to justify playing very strong players for learning purposes, however this is totally illogical in the internet age in particular and with the availability of training videos Only play very strong players heads up, when your money is not at risk
Good luck. I hope things work out well for you.
+1
And don't play HU )
Just stay stable Pingu, you have 40 bins for NL50 - is this enough for a level you have not beaten - wish you well but don't get carried away - you will turn round and suddenly half of it will be gone (
all the best
BRM PINGU BRM /)
on a side note, you want to be playing people where you have an edge
If you have no edge then it's just not worth it long term
Regarding image, yeah your just going to be looked up now more often, take advantage of this )
i
If i was you now i would play 6-8 /> tables on 20NL, and aim to beat it; to build confidence, better to learn from lower levels than at higher when the losses have greater affect esp when it can create conflict with family life, to whatever you do m8 GL.
I think you need a break.
Keep in mind that poker is a marathon not a sprint. I would recommend sticking at the very lowest stakes. even if you are comfortably bankrolled for the higher stakes.
Learn to master the cash game before putting significant sums of money at risk. It can be very tempting to play higher stakes after winning a tournament. however ideally you want to be bankrolling your cash game with cash winnings. This will show you that you are mastering the cash game, as long as you are showing a profit over a very large sample size eg between 50,000 and 100,000 hands maybe more
Playing high stakes is over-rated. The most important things are, to enjoy playing, and play well.
I would suggest that you focus the vast majority of your poker efforts on cash, as this is the form of poker where the biggest edges exist.But learn from training videos and playing very low stakes. After you have gained experience in 6 max games then you could venture into heads up cash. STRICT TABLE SELECTION OF COURSE.
If you crave variety in your poker then I would suggest learning the different forms of cash poker ie NL PLO PLO8 etc. This will provide you with huge variety and stimulation.
You can also stir things up with occasional tournament entries, if the tournament is particularly valuable, ideally through satellites, in particular for the world series main event, for a good player this event is offers great potential value. ALWAYS KEEPING IN MIND BANKROLL MANAGEMENT OF COURSE.
GL.
Ahead £4 per 100 hands at 50 NL.
£40 per 1,000 hands (almost 1 full buyin)
£4,000 per 100,000 hands (80 buy ins)
This is what is required to beat the rake.
Alot of players read pingus diary and like myself alot of them are new to the game and trying to improve and posts like yours help alot of others aswell as pingu himself.
Thanks for your input and please keep it coming
Also best of luck pingu mate and im sure its just a matter of time before that roll starts going up again
Daz
If you have a swingy game then you can easily swing +/- 4-6 bins per session
When you play a BRM of 40 bins then you need a good start, if you don't get that good start and continue then you have to drop down - earn your crust at NL20 and then move on -
When things are going well, BRM doesn't seem like an issue - when you run bad then you really start to feel the pinch
Cash poker is about the longevity not short term success
good luck