Can a chicken go pro?

GaryQQQ

Yeah, it's swings and roundabouts. Bounty Hunter bubble prizes are half what they'd be in a freezeout, but you make up for that with all the head prizes you collect, including those you take all the times you fail to cash.

It evens out in the long run. A good player will make pretty much the same from Bounty Hunters as he/she would from Freezeouts. If anything you can expect to make more because reckless gamblers tend to choose BHs over freezeouts.

There's no doubt the speed structure blunts skill edges and the result becomes more luck based. For that reason I avoid them at my stakes.

You've probably just run bad in those £55 games so far Melt. Results should regress to the mean eventually.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

For example - someone opening BTN a high % of the time will get 3-bet/played back a lot and we could end up with a dynamic where there is a lot of 3/4betting going on.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

A good player will adjust to you accordingly, tightening their range and flatting your 3bets in position more (deep stack) or stack size dependant, 4bet jamming. 

GELDY

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : A good player will adjust to you accordingly, tightening their range and flatting your 3bets in position more (deep stack) or stack size dependant, 4bet jamming. 
Posted by DoubleAAA

oxymoronic?

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oxymoronic?
Posted by GELDY

I meant tightening their range 'or' flatting your 3bets IP more but like he said that's 'if' he considers the person to be +ev to start with, and a person who adjusts accordingly would no longer be +ev for him, so long as he recognises the adjustment.

GELDY

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : I don't know, it's tricky. I mean it's really not the best of rivers so would probably have to c/f although this hand is one of the better hands we can have to 3 barrel bluff. I'm not too sure either if we should be betting turn when they call a flop bet on this board since they will just have an A so often. But at the same time c/f turn would suck and at least if we only bet 1/3 pot we give ourselves a good price to hit OTR rather tIhan let our opponent stick in a hefty turn bet. A high boards when you have a FD are notoriously difficult to play - I mean on 742 with KQ fd we can happily barrel off because we can hit a K or a Q which will often be good - and in addition if opponent has a pair we can get him to fold on high scare cards. But here OTF we only have our FD and if opponent has an A there aren't any scare over cards that could come and we can't improve with a K or Q either. Somewhat related to this hand, I'm interested to hear your thoughts about bluffing/high variance lines in tournaments generally. As a cash player all I have to think about is whether or not I think something is +ev, and if it is then I'm good to go. For example - someone opening BTN a high % of the time will get 3-bet/played back a lot and we could end up with a dynamic where there is a lot of 3/4betting going on. It does't matter if there are weaker players in the game because if I lose (so long as it's a +ev play) then I can reload and still win money from the weaker players in other spots. But in a tournament, if I make the same +ev high variance play it doesn't seem quite as appealing because I will get more edge in other situations.  However, if the BTN knows that you don't want to tangle with them because of this, he can just relentlessly raise you all day, so where do you draw the line?
Posted by F_Ivanovic

very good question and a reason why mtts differ from cash in that middle game blind play is more important

however the key thing to think of is not how many of your blinds are being taken but what is your net balance attack + defense

so you don't have to take on the aggro player with position all the time - just pick your spots against them and be aggro attacking the blinds instead

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oxymoronic?
Posted by GELDY

well if they tighten up, then their opening range is stronger so they will have a good enough hand to continue with (flat or 4bet) a higher % of the time

GELDY

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : well if they tighten up, then their opening range is stronger so they will have a good enough hand to continue with (flat or 4bet) a higher % of the time
Posted by LOL_RAISE

sorry if i'm being dumb but imho

tighten up = smaller range = less hands played

QED

what am i missing?

chicknMelt

ok - update on last night, then I will replay later on to some of the questions..

bad night last night - stone bubbled a UKPC final seat and barely cashed in anything else.

Main - ran quite well, trebbling up twice in flip situations. actually, one of them was 88 v KK v QJ on a Jxx board lol - runner runner for a flush no cash though

Mini - finished 10th. happy with how I played, only question was over my exit hand: the SB is the big stack at the table, I have 60k @ 3k/6k levels in the BB. The SB has been the most active and has just doubled up a 15BB stack. action folds round to the SB, who shoves. I look down at A4o...what should I do? 10 remaining and I'm either 9/10 or 10/10, but have enough chips to last 1 more rotation and still have fold equity. Will probably look at the maths if I get a chance at some point too.

edit - Villains chipstack is around 200k

UKPC semi - played solid, ended up stone bubbling. 

big BH - again played solid, but lost a big pot for a second bounty and to put me up with the chip leaders with AA v 87 on an 8Jx board. turn was an 8. sigh. a few hands later I 3bet jammed my last 10bb or so with AQ. called by AK. gg.

£11 turbo - ran up a gig chipstack and was chip leader for a while, but around the bubble I took 3 or 4 beats and couldnt hang in for a cash.

I'm not sure atm if I'm not playing well or if I'm just running bad - thats the horrible thing about being in a downswing! I feel like I'm getting it in good the vast majority of the time though.

GELDY

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

£11 turbo - ran up a gig chipstack and was chip leader for a while, but around the bubble I took 3 or 4 beats and couldnt hang in for a cash.
Posted by chicknMelt

oops - sorry about the turbo when i shoved my 11 BB with 33 out of the sb over your mr with JJ - and rivered the flush. left you with 8 bigs. nothing wrong with your play in that hand.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oops - sorry about the turbo when i shoved my 11 BB with 33 out of the sb over your mr with JJ - and rivered the flush. left you with 8 bigs. nothing wrong with your play in that hand.
Posted by GELDY

Rub-down?

Keep going chicknmelt, try your best to not let it affect your confidence.  You'll come out of this downswing shortly I'm sure of it!

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oops - sorry about the turbo when i shoved my 11 BB with 33 out of the sb over your mr with JJ - and rivered the flush. left you with 8 bigs. nothing wrong with your play in that hand.
Posted by GELDY

lol, thanks for the reminder Geldy... I'd forgotten the details, but thats for bringing that back to the forefront

gazza127

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

ok - update on last night, then I will replay later on to some of the questions.. bad night last night - stone bubbled a UKPC final seat and barely cashed in anything else. Main - ran quite well, trebbling up twice in flip situations. actually, one of them was 88 v KK v QJ on a Jxx board lol - runner runner for a flush no cash though Mini - finished 10th. happy with how I played, only question was over my exit hand: the SB is the big stack at the table, I have 60k @ 3k/6k levels in the BB. The SB has been the most active and has just doubled up a 15BB stack. action folds round to the SB, who shoves. I look down at A4o...what should I do? 10 remaining and I'm either 9/10 or 10/10, but have enough chips to last 1 more rotation and still have fold equity. Will probably look at the maths if I get a chance at some point too. edit - Villains chipstack is around 200k UKPC semi - played solid, ended up stone bubbling.  big BH - again played solid, but lost a big pot for a second bounty and to put me up with the chip leaders with AA v 87 on an 8Jx board. turn was an 8. sigh. a few hands later I 3bet jammed my last 10bb or so with AQ. called by AK. gg. £11 turbo - ran up a gig chipstack and was chip leader for a while, but around the bubble I took 3 or 4 beats and couldnt hang in for a cash. I'm not sure atm if I'm not playing well or if I'm just running bad - thats the horrible thing about being in a downswing! I feel like I'm getting it in good the vast majority of the time though.
Posted by chicknMelt

Saw this.  Was surprised you went with the hand after the action.  If i remember correctly UTG limped, I raised, got 3 calls behind including you, then UTG raised into 4 opponents.  I dropped my 1010 instantly expecting this to be Aces A LOT.  He's not limp/raising into 4 opponents light and I was a bit shocked you decided to go with 88 and shove.  Of course it wasnt aces... it was kings, but they're pretty much the same

You got further than me in that tournament... i believe it was the £22 Deepstack.  You saw me barrel three streets with air and throw my chip lead away.  The quickness of the calls from the villain in question made me think he was on the flush draw - he was... but he just had top pair to go with it

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : I don't know, it's tricky. I mean it's really not the best of rivers so would probably have to c/f although this hand is one of the better hands we can have to 3 barrel bluff. I'm not too sure either if we should be betting turn when they call a flop bet on this board since they will just have an A so often. But at the same time c/f turn would suck and at least if we only bet 1/3 pot we give ourselves a good price to hit OTR rather tIhan let our opponent stick in a hefty turn bet. A high boards when you have a FD are notoriously difficult to play - I mean on 742 with KQ fd we can happily barrel off because we can hit a K or a Q which will often be good - and in addition if opponent has a pair we can get him to fold on high scare cards. But here OTF we only have our FD and if opponent has an A there aren't any scare over cards that could come and we can't improve with a K or Q either. Somewhat related to this hand, I'm interested to hear your thoughts about bluffing/high variance lines in tournaments generally. As a cash player all I have to think about is whether or not I think something is +ev, and if it is then I'm good to go. For example - someone opening BTN a high % of the time will get 3-bet/played back a lot and we could end up with a dynamic where there is a lot of 3/4betting going on. It does't matter if there are weaker players in the game because if I lose (so long as it's a +ev play) then I can reload and still win money from the weaker players in other spots. But in a tournament, if I make the same +ev high variance play it doesn't seem quite as appealing because I will get more edge in other situations.  However, if the BTN knows that you don't want to tangle with them because of this, he can just relentlessly raise you all day, so where do you draw the line?
Posted by F_Ivanovic

The way I see it:

The point that you should start playing back is variable (as you kind of suggest) depending on ICM and the skill levels at your table... so if you have a big stack, and another good player with a bigstack is relentlessly stealing your blinds from the button, then you should probably just let him if you have other weaker spots at the table that you can get your chips from more easily, on the other hand, on a tricky table with no obvious spots you might want to defend more agressivley. it also helps if you can put them in difficult ICM spots, for example, 3bet shoving for more chips than them on the bubble.

As you say though, if you let a good player get away with stealing your blinds, they will keep on doing it until you give them a reason not to - so if the situation allows it, it can be beneficial to play back at them at quite an early stage - if they are a good player they should realise there is easier spots at the table and target them instead.

not really a clear answer, I've basically just said "it depends"... 

GELDY

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : lol, thanks for the reminder Geldy... I'd forgotten the details, but thats for bringing that back to the forefront
Posted by chicknMelt

your chips were jinxed though - ended up stone cold bubbling

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : Saw this.  Was surprised you went with the hand after the action.  If i remember correctly UTG limped, I raised, got 3 calls behind including you, then UTG raised into 4 opponents.  I dropped my 1010 instantly expecting this to be Aces A LOT.  He's not limp/raising into 4 opponents light and I was a bit shocked you decided to go with 88 and shove.  Of course it wasnt aces... it was kings, but they're pretty much the same You got further than me in that tournament... i believe it was the £22 Deepstack.  You saw me barrel three streets with air and throw my chip lead away.  The quickness of the calls from the villain in question made me think he was on the flush draw - he was... but he just had top pair to go with it
Posted by gazza127

My thinking was there is LOTS of dead money in the pot, I'm short, it might be AK lol... was looking for a gamble and it was a chance to treble up. normally I'm folding there though. this was the main I thought.

Yeah, I didnt actually see your spew hand, I do remember you being chip leader for pretty much the whole tourney until that though lol. I think my bust was pretty brutal in that too - again taking some beats right on the bubble.

gazza127

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : My thinking was there is LOTS of dead money in the pot, I'm short, it might be AK lol... was looking for a gamble and it was a chance to treble up. normally I'm folding there though. this was the main I thought. Yeah, I didnt actually see your spew hand, I do remember you being chip leader for pretty much the whole tourney until that though lol. I think my bust was pretty brutal in that too - again taking some beats right on the bubble.
Posted by chicknMelt

2 and a half hours I was chip leader...

2 and a half bloody hours and then I go and make 1 mistake and its pretty much game over.  Poker is brutal sometimes

Oh and I didnt play the main so it must have been the deepstack

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : 2 and a half hours I was chip leader... 2 and a half bloody hours and then I go and make 1 mistake and its pretty much game over.  Poker is brutal sometimes Oh and I didnt play the main so it must have been the deepstack
Posted by gazza127

Tell me about it!

oh..I guess your right then lol.

chicknMelt

My exit hand from the mini:

SB's shoving range: 22-AA, Ax, Kx, QJ, QT, Q9, JT, J9, a few other randoms

A4 (my hand in the BB) has 50% equity vs this range

ICM Value before the hand = £162.5

if I fold, my ICM value is £154.5

if I call and win, my ICM value is £239.5

if I call and lose my ICM value is £60

fold = £154.5 

call = (chance of winning x ICM value if I win) + (chance of losing x ICM value of losing) = (0.5 x 239.5) + (0.5 x 60)

call = 149.75

so actually, a fold was the best play. on Average, I will make an extra £4.75 by folding (or rather lose £4.75 less)

hmmm, suspected it was a mistake, but I felt like I needed to chip up to have a chance... There are times when it is correct to ignore ICM, but I'm not sure this was one of them

goodylad21

Hi Chicken,

Im exactly the same regarding the £55 speed BH. Must of played it 50+ times & can only remember FT once lol - Dont bother buying in direct anymore, try a couple of £6 sats & thats me (not played it in ages though, cant seem to qualify).

You have been on my tables quite alot over the last 2 nights, got your game sussed now #iwish

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

Hi Chicken, Im exactly the same regarding the £55 speed BH. Must of played it 50+ times & can only remember FT once lol - Dont bother buying in direct anymore, try a couple of £6 sats & thats me (not played it in ages though, cant seem to qualify). You have been on my tables quite alot over the last 2 nights, got your game sussed now #iwish
Posted by goodylad21

lol, I was gonna say... I dont even have my game sussed  

chicknMelt

speaking of "sussing" games...

I thought it would be a good idea to swap session "sweats" with someone. what I mean by this, is you record a session, someone else does the same, and you swap videos. The plan would be to both spot leaks, and pick up some moves you hadnt thought of.

When you have finished analysing the video you can point out mistakes you think they are making and ask questions about some of the lines they have taken... Would anyone be interested in this?

gazza127

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

speaking of "sussing" games... I thought it would be a good idea to swap session "sweats" with someone. what I mean by this, is you record a session, someone else does the same, and you swap videos. The plan would be to both spot leaks, and pick up some moves you hadnt thought of. When you have finished analysing the video you can point out mistakes you think they are making and ask questions about some of the lines they have taken... Would anyone be interested in this?
Posted by chicknMelt

Interested... but not sure how to record a session?  Im assuming I can download something online to do this?

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : Interested... but not sure how to record a session?  Im assuming I can download something online to do this?
Posted by gazza127

yeah, there was a suggestion of using BBFlashBack Express in the extra curricular activities thread - havent tried it myself, but I'm sure it would work...

chicknMelt

Finally a good night!!!

I dont know if you know how good it feels to have a good night when you've been in a downswing - it feels gooood!

I started off the night pretty badly, as per usual this month… losing with 8dTd vs 67o on an 87dxd board (runner runner straight with no diamonds) in a £22 bh and AQ vs KQ in a satellite. But then something strange happened… my hands started to hold! About 80% of the time at least J  … all I could ask for!

 

My 1^st + for the night was cashing for a seat in the £55 bh @9pm from a 7pm sat… a small dent in the £300-£400 of tourneys per night I enter.

 

The next result came from the £22 deepstack @ 7:30pm – I finished 2^nd for about £200, which was a pretty good result considering I was 12/12, 11/11, 10/10 etc etc  and 6/6 with 6 paid going into the final table J

 

From the 7:45 £11 bh I came 3^rd for £40 (I only got 1 bounty)

in the main event I ended up bluffing off my stack... it felt like a good spot to bluff, but the villain showed up with a hand that should have folded long ago to knock me out.

 

Then in the 8:15 £11 £1kgtd bh @ 8:15 I finished 2^nd again for £125

 

Cashed for about £20 in the 8:40 £5 timed

 

Finished 1^st in the £11 turbo at 10pm for £200

 

Then to finish the night I finished 4^th in the £55 big for aroud £400. I was 1/6 going into the final table but I got pretty UL on the final table, running into big hands every time I 3bet shoved etc. tomorrow I may look at 1 or 2 of the marginal (at best) hands I played. I'm sure if I was a bit tighter I would have finished higher, but very pleased none the less.

 

finished the night around £650 in profit.. A nice big dent in the hole I have got myself into this month! Ran well and played well tonight ...out of the 19 tourneys I entered I final tabled 6!

I made a pretty big adjustment to my game yesterday (which didnt pay off yesterday obv), but I carried it on today and it vertainly paid dividends. 

chicknMelt

Ok, no update for 2 days – so I’ll update you with what I can remember…

 

Friday: In general ran pretty good except for a brutal half hour or so around 11:30. This about sums it up: £55 speed bh – mattbates shoves for around 15 bb from the CO, and I call from the BB with AK. He flips over K7… happy days…. A on the flop … yey… turn is a heart to give MB a FD, river another heart. Ouch. Couple of hands later I lose a race to go from around about the chips leaders to out on the bubble! I managed to bink my last tourney of the night though to turn a £200 loss into a £50 win J the only other decent cash was coming 4^th in a £22 bh. For a laugh, I played a few DYM PLO8’s with Tikay…he is such a nit ( I don’t think he will mind me saying that), which suits DYMs…makes it very scary when he pots you lol…although I did repot him once and he insta folded. I know the rules, and know basic DYM strategy, so I managed to cash in 2/4… I have no idea what I’m doing post flop though lol.

 

Saturday: Played well and ran pretty well too – both giving and taking some nasty beats. I had a CRAZY big BH too! – very fun, getting about 7 bounties but still managing to bubble after getting up to 30k chips with 2^nd place under 20k – I bust 3 people in one hand after flopping very disguised trips and getting it in v AA, TP, and a FD and holding! Bounties meant a profit still though. I also managed to finish 20^th in the main event – frustrating again because I was in the top 3 from about 50 players down to about 30 players, 6^th in a £22bh, win a seat to the super roller, win the 9:30 £11bh for £520, 3^rd in the 10pm £11 turbo, as well as a few more cashes. I threw away another seat in the UKPC final by getting a bit to agro, and could have found a fold to stay in the big bh and attempt to scrape a cash – I flopped TPTK with AJ, and the turn was a Q… villain had QJ…it was one of those hands where you had already committed about half your stack and have a choice of folding with 9bb left, or calling all in after one of the worst turn cards in the deck hits.

 

If you include the seats I have won, I’m now at break even for the month, maybe even a few quid in profit… about a week ago I was £1500 in the hole! 

*Edit* - just checked SS - I was £2k+ in the hole at the start of the week. now I'm just -£37

 

I was definitely playing too agro before this week, and got in too many very tricky spots. That along with being semi tilted the whole time made it difficult to lay hands down, and I ran badly. That is my thinking behind how I managed to get so deep in the red this month. I have never been that far in the red in any other months since moving to sky, although I have come close a few times. Coming out of downswings makes it a lot easier to cope with the next ones – my first one was completely demoralizing!

 

Points: 8135 … gonna be close. Will be my first ever month as priority if I make 10k points.

 

I have barely played on the other site since my last update on it because getting priority is going to be so close – I think I have dropped around $50 playing MTTs (which I shouldn’t really have played).

TeddyBloat

Well done coming out of the downswing, takes some toughness and skill that. did you change your schedule, or just reevalute some spots and grind through it?

But I think your biggest achievement this month is repotting tikay... in a DYM... and winning the hand.

chicknMelt

Thanks Teddy!

The things I changed were

- opening tighter (most the time)

-tried to keep tilt under control so is top making embarrassing mistakes. Lol. When u are tilted it surprising how often you think "**** it, I call...oops" clear thinking is needed at all times because you need to be able to make some big lay downs. 

Lol, yes I think I had the nut low and 2nd nut high. So that did help a little  I was still surprised when he folded though. He probably insta folded quite a big hand, which would have been correct, because he knows I know how he plays - and I'm not good enough to know good spots to bluff yet.

darryn1973

Well done on winning the £11 BH last night.

I thought you may go on and win it after knocking me out in a double elimination with AA v QQ v my KK with 14 players to go.

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro?:

Well done on winning the £11 BH last night. I thought you may go on and win it after knocking me out in a double elimination with AA v QQ v my KK with 14 players to go.
Posted by darryn1973

Haha, oh yeah- I nearly forgot about that hand! AA v KK v QQ... And the AA holds- doesn't happen often! Wp btw - nothing u could do there.

chicknMelt

Exit hands from the big bh (top), UKPC final, and super roller (bottom) – SIGH!

 

 

 

Hand History #713641068 (22:28 24/11/2013)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
diamond81	Small blind		50.00	50.00	9988.75
samkoh	Big blind		100.00	150.00	4515.00
	Your hole cards	·       A ·       A
hhamza162	Fold
chicknMelt	Raise		200.00	350.00	1651.00
bearlyther	Fold
sjstwink19	Raise		1000.00	1350.00	5616.00
diamond81	Fold
samkoh	Fold
chicknMelt	All-in		1651.00	3001.00	0.00
sjstwink19	Call		851.00	3852.00	4765.00
chicknMelt	Show	·       A ·       A
sjstwink19	Show	·       8 ·       8
Flop
		·       9 ·       4 ·       10
Turn
		·       6
River
		·       8
sjstwink19	Win	Three 8s	3852.00		8617.0

 

Hand History #713637460 (22:20 24/11/2013)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
chicknMelt	Small blind		40.00	40.00	3647.50
kevcoke69	Big blind		80.00	120.00	7955.00
	Your hole cards	·       K ·       A
Slots	Fold
Jonesy1066	Fold
DazW0lf	Raise		240.00	360.00	6335.00
rivermunky	Fold
chicknMelt	Raise		760.00	1120.00	2887.50
kevcoke69	Fold
DazW0lf	Call		560.00	1680.00	5775.00
Flop
		·       A ·       K ·       10
chicknMelt	Bet		840.00	2520.00	2047.50
DazW0lf	All-in		5775.00	8295.00	0.00
chicknMelt	All-in		2047.50	10342.50	0.00
DazW0lf	Unmatched bet		2887.50	7455.00	2887.50
chicknMelt	Show	·       K ·<span