StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 59: DEJA VU. DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 56: WHAT WOULD YOU DO?:

This is easy to look at dispassionately away from the table but when I have been waiting for a good hand and look down preflop at AQ I think great I want action. I used to fail to reassess depending on the action as it unfolds. By re-raising you have shown a lot of strength. The shove of 30BBs from what seems to be a fairly tight player should be a high pair or AK. At worst a medium pair. Do we really think he has AJ or worse? Now had you flatted I think it would have been a more difficult decision. The raise showed you where you were. 
Posted by thisltedu

Thanks Donald and all for the feedback, I did indeed fold.

The guy later told me in the break, that he had KK.

I had no reason to disbelieve him.

CHIP COUNT: 445K

StayOrGo

UKPC2016 FIFTY SEVENTH HAND:

======================

Blinds 6,000/12,000 Antie 2,000

CHIP COUNT: Up to 465K having previously open raised which got folds

Starting Hand: Ac,7c

PRE-FLOP

I raise to 26K, UTG and get called in the SB, BB folds.

FLOP: Kc,Kd,8h

SB checks, I bet 25k (into a pot of 62k), SB calls.

TURN: Qc

BB donk leads 20K, I call.

RIVER: Qd

BB checks, I check.

BB shows, TT, so with his pair being counterfeit, I take down the pot.

My Thoughts:

PRE_FLOP:

Fairly standard open for me with a medium suited Ace UTG.

FLOP: Kc,Kd,8h

Being in position and with the BB checking, I decide to have a stab.

TURN: Qc

A surprise donk lead by my opponents, but I'm happy to call his small 20k bet having now picked up the Nut Flush Draw, albeit on a paired board.

RIVER: Qd

BB checks, I check behind, feeling that my ace is probably good, but I'm not getting called by worse. (I said in my recording that if the BB bet the river, I would have indeed called)

CHIP COUNT AFTER HAND: 550K

Any thoughts, clearly it was a lucky run out for me, with the rivered queen counterfeiting his pocket pair.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

UKPC2016 FIFTY EIGHTH HAND:

======================

Blinds 6,000/12,000 Antie 2,000

CHIP COUNT: 550K

Starting Hand: Jh,Jd

PRE-FLOP

UTG (fairly standard player) min raises to 24K, I 3bet with JJ from the HJ to 64K, UTG shoves for 350K

My Thoughts:

PRE_FLOP:

Fairly standard 3bet for me here. But what now? Do I call his all in 4bet?

CHIP COUNT AFTER HAND: ???

Any thoughts, to call or not to call?

Cheers,

G

nmongoosez

Another lovely tight spot.... think with you stack  I'd be folding again. If limited information on UTG I'd be thinking min raise and shove is strong , and JJ seems like a race at best.

rspca12

jj i call think if we 3 bet folding then we turning hand to bluff and should just call his opan rather then 3 bet.

rspca12

jj i call think if we 3 bet folding then we turning hand to bluff and should just call his opan rather then 3 bet.

Essexphil

This 1 is close, and I think either option is possible, tending on how you view a player/how your table image is perceived (and how lucky you feel).

For me, this is (just) a call-you are getting just about the right odds for your extra chips. Not often got a dominant hand here, but likely to be flipping a lot.

I expect you called, for the reasons set out by rspca12

thisltedu

Only beaten by 3 hands. He could have an over pair, overcards, or an underpair.

I call and leave it up to the poker gods to decide.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 58: DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?:

jj i call think if we 3 bet folding then we turning hand to bluff and should just call his opan rather then 3 bet.
Posted by rspca12

Thanks for the feedback Chris and all.

I quite often agree with you Chris, but I do differ here. If you look at it like that you'd never 3bet with anything other than premiums or bluffs.

I think it's fine to 3bet here, happy to take it down, and if I'm called, probably going to be good on most low flops. If I do get one overcard a C-bet would let me know where I was.

Anyhow, I decided that the min raise, followed by the shove looked very strong. He knows, with his stack, if he 4bets without shoving that that would scream AA or KK, so I only expect him to fold, call or shove.

I decided to fold, showed my JJ and he showed AA.

This was a bad spell chips wise, I ran my AK into the short stacked QQ and lost, then had to fold my AQ v KK, and then also fold my JJ v AA.

Although I lost a few chips by 3betting then folding, I was happy with all the decisions I made. On these occasions I think I got it right. But don't worry, I mess up later. :=(

Thanks for the input!

CHIP COUNT AFTER HAND: 485K

Cheers,

G

FeelGroggy

I'm on team flat the jacks or 3bet with the intention of getting it in. You play quite aggressively so it would be a bit of a disaster if he ever has a hand like 99 TT and decides you 3bet too much and shoves on you. Do i really want to 3bet run it vs a standard players utg open range for 30bb? No. Do i want to 3bet fold? No. Both those options are kind of meh so think I'd just flat and go from there. 

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 58: DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?:

I'm on team flat the jacks or 3bet with the intention of getting it in. You play quite aggressively so it would be a bit of a disaster if he ever has a hand like 99 TT and decides you 3bet too much and shoves on you. Do i really want to 3bet run it vs a standard players utg open range for 30bb? No. Do i want to 3bet fold? No. Both those options are kind of meh so think I'd just flat and go from there. 
Posted by FeelGroggy

Hi Danny, thanks for this.

The problem if I flat here, is that I have under-repped my hand, and if I do hit a low flop, I'm going to think I'm good. It would be hard not to go broke.

I just don't like flatting here at all. There again, I pretty much don't like flatting anywhere lol. :=)

By playing it as I did, I managed to get out the way. Yes I lost some chips in the process, but imo, it was the only way I could find out if it was a monster.

For me, TT, or AK would be the absolute minimum here, with plenty of occurrences of QQ, KK and AA, so JJ is pretty bad against a range like that.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

Hi. Just a quick bump this thread at IrishRose's request. (she couldn't find it)

I will also try to complete it over the upcoming few weeks.

Cheers,

G

IrishRose

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 58: DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?:

Hi. Just a quick bump this thread at IrishRose's request. (she couldn't find it) I will also try to complete it over the upcoming few weeks. Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

Many thanks Graham.  My eldest son is feeling a bit daunted at the mo as he's recently taken up poker in the local pub once a week (Redtooth Poker League).  He's somehow managed to come 4th in the league they've been running and is off to play in a live game on 12th March for all Redtooth players up in London.  Heaven help me if hubby ever finds out - I guarantee this will somehow be my fault!  (even though really it's Tikay, RSPCA, Chickenmelt and definately TommyDs fault for corrupting him!)

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 58: DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?:

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 58: DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE? : Many thanks Graham.  My eldest son is feeling a bit daunted at the mo as he's recently taken up poker in the local pub once a week (Redtooth Poker League).  He's somehow managed to come 4th in the league they've been running and is off to play in a live game on 12th March for all Redtooth players up in London.  Heaven help me if hubby ever finds out - I guarantee this will somehow be my fault!  (even though really it's Tikay, RSPCA, Chickenmelt and definately TommyDs fault for corrupting him!)
Posted by IrishRose

LOL.

Don't worry about it Rose.

Gary's Mum was pretty mad at me when he left his job in a Garden Nursery to play Poker full time.

Now he's just bought her a new car with his winnings, so she's gradually coming around to the idea that it might not all be bad. :=)

Although if anything were to go pear shaped with him (touch wood it won't), I would absolutely expect to get it in the neck from her.

Being a parent, it goes with the teritorry I'm afraid, no matter how old they are. :=)

markycash

Think even Moorman's parents were sceptical about him playing poker full time. That one worked out okay

thisltedu

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 58: DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?:

Hi. Just a quick bump this thread at IrishRose's request. (she couldn't find it) I will also try to complete it over the upcoming few weeks. Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

Hi Graham,

I've been hoping you would finish this. Looking forward to seeing the next hands. It's been a great thread.

StayOrGo

OK here we go again. Enjoy :=)

UKPC2016 FIFTY NINTH HAND: (100 playes left. On bubble)

=======================================

Blinds 8,000/16,000 Antie 2,000

CHIP COUNT: 460K

Starting Hand: Js,Jd

PRE-FLOP

UTG+1 (quite aggro player) min raises to 32K, the CutOff (a tight player) shoves for his 250K, once again I have pocket Jacks, this time in the Big Blind.

What should I do here?

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

G

percival09

The answer to that question depends on a more detailed description of the "tight player" If he's tight tight, like tight tight tight, then it's a fold. If he's not a tight tight tight player, but only a tight player, then it's a call. The accuracy of your "tight" read is also of paramount importance here: I see some people throwing the tight word around simply because a player hasn't played a hand in 30 minutes or whatever, when in truth that read only becomes significant if we have many hours of information on the player (for a live game). Anyway, I think it's unlikely that it's a fold. All IN

I suppose it is relatively close though because I imagine 99 is a fold & TT is marginal. I should probably conclude by adding that I'm not a tournament player by any stretch so my stack size play is about as good as an astrologer's reasoning capabilities.

markycash

Definitely going with the JJ here. 

I am assuming the 'tight' player also knows the intial opener is a 'quite aggro player' and he has a perfect stack size to jam here with 15 BBs and add 20%+ to his stack size. Even a tightish player should be able to consider using their tight image here to get one through.

Another plus is that you do not need to worry about many players behind although there is obviously a little concern about the 'quite aggro player' just happening to have a hand. Not enough concern to get a fold out of me though.

Lambert180

Yeah as above I think JJ is a bit too strong to fold unless you realllly know that the 3b jammer is realllly tight. I'd prefer to know the aggro opener doesn't have us covered (we don't know his stack) just incase he has woke up with a monster here but yeah think I'm re-jamming regardless. Would hate a call if you intend to fold to a jam from the opener.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 59: DEJA VU. DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?:

The answer to that question depends on a more detailed description of the "tight player" If he's tight tight, like tight tight tight, then it's a fold. If he's not a tight tight tight player, but only a tight player, then it's a call. The accuracy of your "tight" read is also of paramount importance here: I see some people throwing the tight word around simply because a player hasn't played a hand in 30 minutes or whatever, when in truth that read only becomes significant if we have many hours of information on the player (for a live game). Anyway, I think it's unlikely that it's a fold. All IN I suppose it is relatively close though because I imagine 99 is a fold & TT is marginal. I should probably conclude by adding that I'm not a tournament player by any stretch so my stack size play is about as good as an astrologer's reasoning capabilities.
Posted by percival09

Hi percival, you are absolutely right of course.

I would say the aggro guy was "quite aggro" and the tight guy was "very tight". Of course how you interpret that may be completely different to how feel I am conveying it, but it's the best I can do without actually giving you the range that I had for them both, which would kind of give things away.

I will post the conclusion of the hand tomorrow just incase anyone wants to give some feedback tonight.

Thanks for all the responses guys.

Cheers,

G

P.S. The initial opener had me covered.

StayOrGo

I decided to fold my JJ here.

In the recording, I said that I thought his range was AK. TT+ and the only hand I really want to get it in against was TT.

The initial opener folded and the guy who shoved showed, AK.

Considering the situation, I'm OK with the fold. If our hands were face up, I would probably still fold, as to call/go all in, and lose would mean I no longer had a playable stack. Also, stating the obvious, I was in the big blind, so I had only 1BB committed to the pot, which was compulsory good hand or bad.

If it was a £22 BH do I shove? Yes of course I would! Which then lends itself to the question of how differently should one play at the different staking levels?

I am sure there will be differing opinions on this, it was certainly a marginal decision and quite nitty for me.

Cheers,

G