did you consider going for a check raise bluff on the turn? Posted by GGGGCCCC
Hi GC,
No, I'd be more likely to check/raise the turn if I had an Ace.
I do agree, that in general people don't check/raise as a bluff often enough (something I've also heard Neil Channing say)
However, in this circumstance, in case he has got a hand, I don't want the bet size to be overly inflated, to minimise the potential chip loss. So I preferred the more conventional 2nd barrell, but I like the imaginative thinking. :=)
These kind of simple hands are the ones that occur most frequently, but people overlook most often because they aren't big pots, I think for a lot of people looking to improve its useful to give these kind of hands more attention.
This hand is interesting and the mixed reception is also interesting.
I think a massive factor here is this: 'Blinds 75/150 Ante 25'
There's already 450 chips out there to add to our stack and with a tight image I think it could be justified opening here.
Whilst our hand doesn't play particularly well postflop, it has a king which makes other players having kings less likely and so are slightly more likely to have variations of hands with low cards, i.e hands that just fold. If we are going to open the hand it has to be with the idea of applying pressure postflop on certain boards.
Some comments have said 'I would much prefer opening with x hand', and these comments are valid. However the hand we have is K3o and we need to decide if we can play this hand profitably based on the information we have. With the notes we have on villain as floaty, and a scary card for a good portion of villain's flop calling range (9x, 77, etc) I think the turn is a mandatory barrel, if we are going to play this hand.
I would personally be in team fold preflop, but I think there's more validity in opening it then some have suggested in their responses, although everybody is entitled to their opinion :-) Discussing hands like this is always good. I like forward to more hands.
These kind of simple hands are the ones that occur most frequently, but people overlook most often because they aren't big pots, I think for a lot of people looking to improve its useful to give these kind of hands more attention. This hand is interesting and the mixed reception is also interesting. I think a massive factor here is this: ' Blinds 75/150 Ante 25' There's already 450 chips out there to add to our stack and with a tight image I think it could be justified opening here. Whilst our hand doesn't play particularly well postflop, it has a king which makes other players having kings less likely and so are slightly more likely to have variations of hands with low cards, i.e hands that just fold. If we are going to open the hand it has to be with the idea of applying pressure postflop on certain boards. Some comments have said 'I would much prefer opening with x hand', and these comments are valid. However the hand we have is K3o and we need to decide if we can play this hand profitably based on the information we have. With the notes we have on villain as floaty, and a scary card for a good portion of villain's flop calling range (9x, 77, etc) I think the turn is a mandatory barrel, if we are going to play this hand. I would personally be in team fold preflop, but I think there's more validity in opening it then some have suggested in their responses, although everybody is entitled to their opinion :-) Discussing hands like this is always good. I like forward to more hands. Posted by FeelGroggy
Thanks Danny, for a very insightful, well measured, open minded and rational response.
I know I can always count on that from you. Good lad!
It's been quite a journey already, this thread. I'm only on the second hand! :=)
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SECOND HAND NOW REVEALED : Thanks Danny, for a very insightful, well measured, open minded and rational response. I know I can always count on that from you. Good lad! It's been quite a journey already, this thread. I'm only on the second hand! :=) Posted by StayOrGo
Rational's my middle name, apart from when I'm running bad on poker then sky is clearly rigged against me ;-)
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SECOND HAND NOW REVEALED : Hi Mark, Hands like these always get a plethora of views from various people. To some people raising with such hands is just a no-no, to others it's routine, and to some it's, ok now and again. It's impossible to justify actions to all camps, which is why my "plays" will always receive mixed reviews. My request of people, is to not look at things as wholely Good or wholely Bad, but to consider plays with an open mind (even if it seems completely bizaar to you) I would love to be able to justify to every individual, why I think something is +ev, but will never be able to convince all. So I just offer my opinion/thoughts and people can dismiss it or consider it as they see fit. Thanks for the feedback. Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
I would agree with pretty much everything you stated above. Hope you don't take it as a criticism, just my take on that particular hand. As I mentioned at the bottom of my post, you had been playing the table and watching the opponent for a while so you were in a better position to judge.
Very good of you to put yourself out there and post these. I know we will all have different takes on it though and have differing opinions and any different suggestions deviating from the line taken, by myself at least, are purely for the point of discussion and certainly not intended to criticise.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SECOND HAND NOW REVEALED : I would agree with pretty much everything you stated above. Hope you don't take it as a criticism, just my take on that particular hand. As I mentioned at the bottom of my post, you had been playing the table and watching the opponent for a while so you were in a better position to judge. Very good of you to put yourself out there and post these. I know we will all have different takes on it though and have differing opinions and any different suggestions deviating from the line taken, by myself at least, are purely for the point of discussion and certainly not intended to criticise. Posted by markycash
Understood Mark, no problem, and apologies, if I appear at all defensive regarding my opinions. Some plays I feel more sure about that others (in my minds eye), so I am less likely to be convinced that it was "wrong". This being one of those. I do try my best to put the ego to one side, but it sometimes creeps back in :=)
I am very happy to receive your thoughts/feedback.
Love this!! What a guy - to open up your game and thought process in its entirety! Fair play to you Graham - love the responses this far and think they are so well balanced and as you said, just hand two!
Love this!! What a guy - to open up your game and thought process in its entirety! Fair play to you Graham - love the responses this far and think they are so well balanced and as you said, just hand two! Posted by Nuggy962
Good stuff, glad your are finding it interesting/useful Nuggy :=)
Hi all. It's worth pointing out that I often deviate from the conventional line. So my plays will get much critiscm from the masses. It doesn't mean my plays are "right " nor does it mean they are "wrong". IMO we should move away from "good", "bad", "right", "wrong " and look at the golden mean of the broader benefits and drawbacks. This will require an open-minded approach and a willingness to consider other options that may not be the conventional one. Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
This is something I would agree with (to a degree) - Many players seem to think there is only one way to play certain spots and that anything else is bad - they are stuck in that mind-set too.
Obviously there are some spots though where there is clearly a wrong decision. eg. Opening 72o UTG will almost always be a mistake.
I'm interested to what you think about my suggestion about varying your raise size pre for this spot you had. Looking forward to hand 3
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SECOND HAND NOW REVEALED : This is something I would agree with (to a degree) - Many players seem to think there is only one way to play certain spots and that anything else is bad - they are stuck in that mind-set too. Obviously there are some spots though where there is clearly a wrong decision. eg. Opening 72o UTG will almost always be a mistake. I'm interested to what you think about my suggestion about varying your raise size pre for this spot you had. Looking forward to hand 3 Posted by F_Ivanovic
Hi Ivan, for reasons I mentioned before I very rarely vary my pre flop raise size, regardless of what my hand is. (I sometimes vary it based on table position, but not on hand strength/type). For example I might 2.2x it as standard UTG and 2.4x it as standard on the button. That is NOT to say I NEVER do it, but rarely, and I wouldn't personally consider it in this situation. I feel that good players will soon start to recognise what certain raise sizes can mean, if you adopt this strategy.
I do understand however, the point you are trying to make.
I think this is an interesting thread and hope it continues. I do think the whole discussion of 'right' and 'wrong' plays is interesting and is something I want to touch on. I don't think it's a stretch to consider poker a mathematical game, and as such each possible situation does in fact have an optimal response. So, if this is the case, then there is a right and wrong: wrong being whatever isn't the highest EV decision. If you know all of the ingredients of an opponents line: opening range, betting range, checking range, frequencies, and then how often they are likely to deviate, then I don't think we can really argue that there isn't an optimal response, and therefore a wrong play.
However, this is of course impossible to know. We can't know everything. But still, with the information that we can reasonably acquire, there should still be an optimal response, right? It still isn't simple by any stretch of the imagination to do, but if we think villain does X, then it is possible to know Y is the optimal response, rather than Z. So, perhaps what you're arguing is 'we think differently, so there is no right or wrong', and while that's true, we do think differently, it doesn't mean there's not a right play, if we agree that 'right' simply means the move that results in the most profit.
Let's say for a second that AI plays poker perfectly against itself, like PokerSnowie, then that AI is always making a perfect decision. It is always maximising its EV. Just because we are limited, as humans, in our thought process and deliberate action taking, it doesn't mean there isn't an EV that's highest, and therefore right, in every single spot imaginable. Perhaps it's better to think of decisions on a spectrum, rather than right and wrong, because I do agree that right and wrong kind of undermines the complexity of poker.
Cliffs: Every single poker spot has an optimal response, and therefore there is a right and wrong move. However, it's impossible for humans to always respond optimally.
I think this is an interesting thread and hope it continues. I do think the whole discussion of 'right' and 'wrong' plays is interesting though. I don't think it's a stretch to consider poker a mathematical game, and as such each possible situation does in fact have an optimal response. So, if this is the case, then there is a right and wrong: wrong being whatever isn't the highest EV decision. If you know all of the ingredients of an opponents line: opening range, betting range, checking range, frequencies, and then how often they are likely to deviate, then I don't think we can really argue that there isn't an optimal response, and therefore a wrong play. However, this is of course impossible to know. We can't know everything. But still, with the information that we can reasonably aquire, there should still be an optimal response, right? It still isn't simple by any stretch of the imagination to do, but if we think villain does X, then it is possible to know Y is the optimal response, rather than Z. So, perhaps what you're arguing is 'we think differently, so there is no right or wrong', and while that's true, we do think differently, it doesn't mean there's not a right play, if we agree that 'right' simply means the move that results in the most profit. Let's say for a second that AI plays poker perfectly against itself, like PokerSnowie, then that AI is always making a perfect decision. It is always maximising its EV. Just because we are limited, as humans, in our thought process and deliberate action taking, it doesn't mean there isn't an EV that's highest, and therefore right, in every single spot imaginable. Perhaps it's better to think of decisions on a spectrum, rather than right and wrong, because I do agree that right and wrong kind of undermines the complexity of poker. One of my favourite quotes "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there's a great deal of difference" Cliffs: Every single poker spot has an optimal response, and therefore there is a right and wrong move. However, it's impossible for humans to always respond optimally. Thoughts? Posted by percival09
Hi percival. I take your point. You kind of alluded to where I am coming from, by stating that it impossible for humans to know your following statement as fact
"If you know all of the ingredients of an opponents line: opening range, betting range, checking range, frequencies, and then how often they are likely to deviate" Also you need to add that they are human and won't always follow a set pattern and how do you guage how often they'll deviate and when.
Incidentally, at the moment, and it will probably remain so, computers can't play optimally in NLHE against humans, giving an idea of the complexity involved. I do believe that recently a Computer has been able to play Fixed Limit Holdem optimally, but not NLHE. Lets hope it remains that way, otherwise online poker is finished.
Anyhow, most decisions there is a clear +ev action, but with decisions that get contested by very competent players, this is often not the case. Also, when playing live, there are subliminal msgs. I study my opponents in a very mindful way, not necessarily trying to get reads. But, lets just say for example, that I might have a "GUT" reaction, that is based on something I saw, even though I can't say what I saw. How do you factor that into these complex scenarios. The answer imo, is that you can't. Even in online play, I may make a call, because of a perceived "timing tell". These nuances are what make our wonderful world of poker so complex and in a way "artful" not just scientific. Holdem Manager, strap line is aptly "The Art and Science of Poker"
I hope this goes some way to answering you question. Anyhow, on to hand 3 now, enjoy!
It still isn't simple by any stretch of the imagination to do, but if we think villain does X, then it is possible to know Y is the optimal response, rather than Z.
I appreciate the sentiments but I think to over-mathematicalise (that cannot be a word surely) things in this way can blind those pondering a hand to the many nuanced aspects that should be considered.
For example... Your above equation does hold true but has many layers. If we know the opponent will do 'X' which therefore means 'Y' is the correct play rather than 'Z', well that is all great. The point it gets tricky is when the opponent knows you think he will do 'X' so you will opt for 'Y' rather than 'Z' and therefore he opts to do 'A'. Now if you are smart you will incorporate this into your thought process (basically pondering your own table image and how your actions are being perceived) and can therefore round the equation back to 'you know your opponent will do 'X'... But then if your opponent is smart he will know this and opt to do 'B'. Then we have to consider if your opponent is thinking on this level and doing 'A' or 'B' or if he is just doing 'X'.
There are just so many layers that it is hard to reduce poker to the simple equation above (hence there are not as of yet an army of Phil Ivey/Daniel Negreanu/whoever bots crushing poker on the internet). If bots were made that followed the perceived 'optimal' mathematical line in every hand they 'may' do okay at lower stakes but at high stakes versus the best players they would be destroyed.
It is also hard to factor in things like whether the opponent is steaming from losing a previous hand etc.
I appreciate both responses. I would like to take the discussion further but I feel it's a slight derail. I don't really want to turn the thread too far away from its original purpose, so I'll depart. If another thread on the topic arises then I'll post there. Thx
For each situation, I agree with you that there will be a way you can play a specific spot optimally in a vacuum. However, we don't always play in a vacuum and so making some sub-optimal decision at a specific point in the hand will sometimes:
a) enable you to gain greater value later on in the hand
but most importantly, it will help with your range in a spot and allow you to profit more in future hands in similar spots.
Lets take a simple pre-flop example where CO raises and you are OTB with KK. The optimal play here is surely to 3b. But it might not be optimal to 3b it 100% of the time, but rather 80%. When we just flat, SB, BB and CO will percieve our range to be weak. SB or BB might be tempted to squeeze in this spot. In future situations if SB/BB know we are capable of flatting strong hands OTB they might be less likely to squeeze - enabling us to profitably flat more hands that we would like to play OTB.
Phil Galfond is obsessed with balance and when watching some his videos, he constantly makes the point that there's very few situations he gets in where he would always do X or always do Y and I think he's right with that.
However, for situations where you are in a relative vacuum (eg. Early in a ive tournaments with unknowns or after table move) then we can throw balance out the window - and as such only focus on the optimal play to do most often. Even low stakes online we can largely ignore balance for the most part. Obviously we want to be balanced with some aspects, but there are many situations where it doesn't matter you are balanced since your opponent just isn't going to be exploiting that fact.
I think you're mistaking balance for optimal responses. It isn't about balance, it's about optimal responses. It is possible for two actions to have the same EV (check and bet for example) so a mixed strategy is feasible. However, this isn't an argument against optimal responses. Again, I really don't want to derail, so if there's interest perhaps a new thread should be opened.
My thought processes "AT THE TIME" were as follows:
PRE FLOP:
1) My standard raise from the CUTOFF would be 525 for all raising hands, (475 if Early Table Position). So my action with KK was a standard open from the CUTOFF and as such, a bet of 525.
Flop: 7h7c8c
POST FLOP:
2) My preferred play here is a check/call here for pot control against 7x hands and to allow worse hands to bet. He bets 1,100, I happily call.
Turn: 6c
POST TURN:
3) Again, I check/call again here, a flush has potentially got there. However, he doesn't have to have a flush and I also do have the Kc. He bets, 2,200, and I, "not quite so happily call"
River: Ac
4) OK, so I've got the NUT flush, but it is a paired board. I decide that I am probably ahead, but he will likely have showdown value (a worse flush possibly or trip 7's), so I felt I should lead out. I bet 5K
5) When my opponent, makes it 12K, I'm in a very tricky situation, I decided to "sigh" call. I felt at the time it was a bad call, and when I reflected upon it at a later stage, I can see that, clearly, it should have been a fold.
My opponent showed As7s for a winning full house.
THIS IS MY REFLECTION OF THIS HAND, AT A LATER DATE, OUTSIDE OF THE HEAT OF BATTLE:
Clearly my opponent was polorised, it was either a bluff or a full house. So I think we can remove likely flushes as a scenario. Which means a full house or possibly a 7 turning into a bluff. However nearly all 7x hands on this board have made a house. It is feasible that he may call pre with, 76s, 87, 97, A7s, only 97 doesn't make a house. As the hand played out, I can't see how it can be a bluff, so when he made it 12k, I should clearly have folded.
OK, I am happy with my play pre flop, post flop and post turn, I'm fairly fixed in the view that this, for me, was the correct play. Clearly I should fold to his re-raise on the river. However, where I really come unstuck, even after reflection, is, should I have check called the river, or was it right, against his range to lead out?
I'm happy for people to have differing flop and turn thoughts, but mine will not change on this.
However, I am very keen to hear peoples thoughts on the, "Do I lead out on the river question, or is it a check/call?"
I appreciate both responses. I would like to take the discussion further but I feel it's a slight derail. I don't really want to turn the thread too far away from its original purpose, so I'll depart. If another thread on the topic arises then I'll post there. Thx Posted by percival09
I value your input on this percival, as you are clearly very knowledgable in this area.
However it may be best addressed on a separate thread, as the main point I was trying to convey, is that people should have an open mind as much as possible, and perhaps consider that their "fixed view" may not have considered all the nuances that exist.
However I am quite a hypocrite on this, as you will note, that my views on the flop and turn play of hand three are unlikely to ever be swayed. However, that is not to say never, but there is only so much I can re-consider each time, and the part I want to address is solely the river play. (BTW, I don't mind people having their own discussion re my flop and turn play, but I do not feel it necessary or useful to defend it)
you're more likely to get him putting more chips in light without betting, which looks very strong. It also means you are maintaining pot control for when he has the house, which as you say is in his range.
great thread G I like check/call on the river you're more likely to get him putting more chips in light without betting, which looks very strong. It also means you are maintaining pot control for when he has the house, which as you say is in his range. Posted by GELDY
Yeh, it's a tricky one, you may well be right, but a lot of players will just check behind with a 7 or a lower flush.
It is sometimes difficult not to be results orientated. In hindsight, I should have left it open for discussion after the turn, without revealing the result.
I'm not saying your opinion would change, but, lets say he called with a lower flush, either 7d9c or a made flush on the turn that got counterfiet and called my bet, would people then say it was a good lead out?
I don't know, but perhaps in these scenarious I should give it a day before revealing the "result".
Thanks for the feedback Lars, and I'm not suggesting in any way, that your answer is results orientated.
I'm just stating that, if I don't provide the result, then we know for sure that people's responses, are indeed based upon the only facts that were known to me at the time.
Blocker value bet on the river defo makes sense to me, if we check i think we miss out on value against a few hands that will sigh call river that would most likely check back, i don't think checking induces enough bluffs/thin value bets as opposed to the calls blocker betting will get against the same hands, and we can be very comfortable folding against a polar raising range that is massively weighted towards value, 7x calls/folds and is never going to turn the hand into a bluff ( i don't think) hard for oppo to have a flush and if they do the best holding is qx flush so they just snap off in this spot and never raise for value (unless v good reads on oppo massively over valuing hands ). The raise on the river is polar to like absolute junk of which apart from complete airballs and maybe a very odd semi bluff cant really think of anything maybe like 56 without a club could make some sicko bluff raise on the river here but yeah basically nothing in the bluff end of oppos range here and we are beat by all the value.
I think there's already been a lot of very interesting discussion on this thread already and think all the people contributing are doing so in a positive and good manner.
In hand 3 I think the river play is the most important aspect of the hand and that whilst there are different options throughout the hand this is the most important decision point.
I think it makes sense to donk lead this river for value. The problem for check calling this river is that many value hands we beat, trips, straights, weak flushes, are likely just to check back, whilst all the value range that bets has us beat. I also think if we are thinking about what hands he plays like this, its going to be extremely value heavy if he does bet the river after we check, as his weak showdown hands like straights and trips just check and its extremely difficult to think of hands that he plays this way that gets to the river and doesn't have any showdown value, unless the villain is capable enough to turn the weakest portion of showdown value hands into bluffs on the river, to balances for the time he value bets. (I don't think we can assume this to be the case) By leading out we can get sigh calls off stubborn weak showdown hands that would check back, or flushes we beat. Once we get raised I can't imagine a viable combination of cards villain can have that we beat, so I think a disciplined fold is probably the play.
I really like this sharing of hands and think its fantastic your submitting hands that you actually think you misplayed as well as those you played well.
I like the river lead and yeah it's probably a fold on the river, as Groggy said, I jus think it's reallly hard to come up with a combo that we beat when he raises the river, and even if we come up with a couple it'll be a lot less than the combos of FHs. It's the kind of spot that in-play I probably end up calling in-play feeling like I have to even though I'm sure I'm beat then feel stupid afterwards when I get shown the inevitable house.
Fwiw, I haven't seen it mentioned yet but I deffo prefer a flop bet as oppose to a c/c. There are just so many hands we can get value from on this flop, hands where it's very likely he chooses to just take a free card and we miss a bet. There's also quite a lot of ugly turn cards where even if we haven't been outdrawn, it will end up killing the action/making it hard for us to get value from worse.
Agree with most of the replies so far. The lead looks good to me for value, the hands you might hope to get value from are just likely to check behind on this river. Any call of the 12k reraise obviously has to be based on a pretty strong read and is quite opponent/situation specific and in this spot probably a sigh/fold.
Just posting to say I too am enjoying this thread. Really hope you stick with it and keep giving us your thoughts on each hand. You will get 'experts' disagreeing with you on a lot of decisions and what not, but that is part of the course when these things come up.
Just a couple of basic questions from me (as I don't play live as much as I would like).
Do you always rack up in your head what is in the pot if you are in the hand?
It amazes me that some views given already are an essay to how you should/could of played a hand given the maths etc etc. Surely sometimes you just have to go with your instinct/feel for the situation due to not having very much time before you have to act?
Comments
Very good of you to put yourself out there and post these. I know we will all have different takes on it though and have differing opinions and any different suggestions deviating from the line taken, by myself at least, are purely for the point of discussion and certainly not intended to criticise.
Loving the thread and looking forward to the subsequent hands, some excellent discussion!
Obviously there are some spots though where there is clearly a wrong decision. eg. Opening 72o UTG will almost always be a mistake.
I'm interested to what you think about my suggestion about varying your raise size pre for this spot you had. Looking forward to hand 3
However, this is of course impossible to know. We can't know everything. But still, with the information that we can reasonably acquire, there should still be an optimal response, right? It still isn't simple by any stretch of the imagination to do, but if we think villain does X, then it is possible to know Y is the optimal response, rather than Z. So, perhaps what you're arguing is 'we think differently, so there is no right or wrong', and while that's true, we do think differently, it doesn't mean there's not a right play, if we agree that 'right' simply means the move that results in the most profit.
Cliffs: Every single poker spot has an optimal response, and therefore there is a right and wrong move. However, it's impossible for humans to always respond optimally.
For example... Your above equation does hold true but has many layers. If we know the opponent will do 'X' which therefore means 'Y' is the correct play rather than 'Z', well that is all great. The point it gets tricky is when the opponent knows you think he will do 'X' so you will opt for 'Y' rather than 'Z' and therefore he opts to do 'A'. Now if you are smart you will incorporate this into your thought process (basically pondering your own table image and how your actions are being perceived) and can therefore round the equation back to 'you know your opponent will do 'X'... But then if your opponent is smart he will know this and opt to do 'B'. Then we have to consider if your opponent is thinking on this level and doing 'A' or 'B' or if he is just doing 'X'.
There are just so many layers that it is hard to reduce poker to the simple equation above (hence there are not as of yet an army of Phil Ivey/Daniel Negreanu/whoever bots crushing poker on the internet). If bots were made that followed the perceived 'optimal' mathematical line in every hand they 'may' do okay at lower stakes but at high stakes versus the best players they would be destroyed.
It is also hard to factor in things like whether the opponent is steaming from losing a previous hand etc.
a) enable you to gain greater value later on in the hand
Phil Galfond is obsessed with balance and when watching some his videos, he constantly makes the point that there's very few situations he gets in where he would always do X or always do Y and I think he's right with that.
However, for situations where you are in a relative vacuum (eg. Early in a ive tournaments with unknowns or after table move) then we can throw balance out the window - and as such only focus on the optimal play to do most often. Even low stakes online we can largely ignore balance for the most part. Obviously we want to be balanced with some aspects, but there are many situations where it doesn't matter you are balanced since your opponent just isn't going to be exploiting that fact.
I like check/call on the river
you're more likely to get him putting more chips in light without betting, which looks very strong. It also means you are maintaining pot control for when he has the house, which as you say is in his range.
Really enjoying the thread btw.