StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 59: DEJA VU. DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?

Enut · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Cheers TK, much appreciated. :=) BTW, I'm not great with theses acronyms. TOTW? Which one of these beauties did you mean TK? lol Rank Abbr. Meaning TOTW Taste of the Wild TotW Tales of the World (game) TOTW Topic of the Week TOTW Top of the World TOTW Temple of Three Winds (Anarchy Online Mmorpg location) TOTW Twist of the Wrist (motorcycles) TOTW Treasures of the Web TOTW Take Over the World TOTW Tune of the Week (radio shows) TOTW Thoughts of the Week TOTW Trance Around the World (radio show) TOTW Tutorial of the Week TOTW Top of the Week TOTW Team of the Week
Posted by StayOrGo

Gutted that I've never won this.

Snap fold btw, but I am now officially useless at MTTs so I guess the correct answer is go all in and pick up the pot.

F_Ivanovic · May 2016

With your AK hand, I generally prefer to know what I'm planning on doing before I make a 4b but sometimes it's easier said than done! Being IP I am generally more prone to flatting my AK unless I know my opponent is really out of line with his 3b (even given positions where we should have a strong opening range from here) If you think he's 3b wide for value though then 4b is great because we put him into a tough decision with a lot of his hands like TT/JJ for instance. (which he prob will get away from post if an A flops)

With the 67s hand I agree with markycash. On first glance it seems like an easy fold but there are a few options. We can simply just raise now to try and represent Tx or we can call. If we call, there are many options we can proceed with:

- Donk turn
- Check, and see how action develops - potentially putting in a raise if OR bets and Neil Channing folds.
- If it checks through, we can lead river very large

Be interesting to see what you did. With a tight image, I think I would definitely be making a play in this spot but if I'd been pretty active I would probably just let it go.

Itsover4u · May 2016

Id fold with so little invested... not many good turns & any good Turns (IE another 7) are just getting us in more trouble if we are behind.

a re-raise looks super strong and would be the only other option but against 2 decent players you are unlikely to get rid ot 88+ on the flop which makes the turn super hard to play.

CraigSG1 · May 2016

I knew a few people would say it's a good spot to make a play but I don't think it's the right board. We are going to find it harder to get rid of any hands with very good equity like FDs and SDs and combos of the two. On say a 10106 or 10102 board a play here is better as we can fold out better hands easier.

I just feel we have to think there are better spots to get involved in than this

bbMike · May 2016

I think I'm in the fold camp. If we raise I think we have to decide what it is we're repping as you're no longer playing your hand if you raise. So how you play hearts or 89 or Tx or 77 on this board becomes important. I'd much prefer a raise in position, calling would be bad given there are so few turns that are good for your hand, and Neil is unlikely to let it all check through on the turn. If you raise you've got to be prepared to fire 3 at this but with your stack size it's plausible but could be seen as spewy if it doesn't come off!

Suspect the 'move camp' is just pre-empting your actual play given it's a post-worthy hand. Suspect 90% of players would fold here?

Dunno, I'm not that useful, but those would be my thoughts.

RICHORFORD · May 2016

Hi Graham,

Hope you're well and good to play against you the other night in the MTT.

Just discovered your thread and will slowly make my way through it. Loved Gus Hansen's book and this format. And have already read your first hand and given it some thought.

My own conclusion on it was you played it perfectly fine and, controversially(!), I see nothing wrong with the pre-flop 3 bettor's play!

Suited gapped connectors is a playable hand with plenty of potential to land a monster flop which will crush pre-flop premium hands. The main point is though, HE was the aggressor- he played the hand strongly by 3-betting and since everyone else just called this bet and didn't put any pressure back on him, then when he flops the nuts he's obviously going to try and get the lot in asap. You can't fault his play after his initial 3-bet.

His only debatable move in the entire hand is his initial pre-flop bet and it seems like a perfectly legitimate move to me, albeit not necessarily one I think I'd be looking to make that early in the game.

That being said, and bearing in mind you didn't put a foot wrong either, that must have been horrible to see the 10-8 flip over and a giant relief to house up on the river!

I think the guy who exited that early from the tournament will have more nightmares about it than you would have done had you lost the hand, because of course he could have played it more passively pre-flop and maybe got to the end of the hand having only lost 1/3rd to 1/2th his stack.

Live by the sword, die by the sword eh?

Anyway, great thread. Will enjoy dipping in and out of this over the coming weeks as I play on the tables.

:-)

StayOrGo · May 2016

UKPC2016 SIXTH HAND CONT: (FLOP ACTION)

===============================

Blinds 150/300 Antie 25

Chip Count: 87K

Starting Hand: 6s7s

UTG+1 raises to 700, UTG+2 calls, CutOff calls (Neil Channing), I call in the SB, BB calls.

Flop: ThTc7h

I check, BB checks, UTG+1 raises to 1.5K, UTG+2 folds, Neil calls.

ON ME: I decide to re-raise to 3.5K, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Neil thinks for a while, then calls.

Turn: 5s

ME TO ACT. THOUGHTS?

Thoughts so far:

I decide that 1.5K is a fairly small raise from the UTG+1 guy (compaired to his previous C-bets which had been about 65% of the pot), which possibly signifies great strength, but more likely a weak continuation bet.

I feel Neil's range is quite wide, Tx, 7x, low pocket pairs, flush and/or straight draws.

Calling is the least attractive play to me, in this spot, so I go for the re-raise to 3.5K for a variety of reasons:

1) Find out where I am. (Losing 3.5k to do this, wouldn't damage me too much)

2) A small re-raise like this would look scary to my opponents (like I wanted to get called, possible Ten or 77 in their eyes)

2) Possibly win 7K for a 3.5K bet if they fold.

3) Protect my hand if ahead.

4) Not give a free card to drawing hands

(It's worth pointing out that I would probably have folded if the initial flop bet was 2K+)

So onto the turn, which was the 5s, just me and Neil left in the hand, me to act from the small blind.

Check or bet? Thoughts welcome.

Cheers,

G

markycash · May 2016

As I mentioned in my post if I was raising this on the flop then I would be looking to fire the turn too as it isn't 'air' hands we are looking to fold and the story told by the betting will have to be convincing.

As you mentioned and I noted in my reply I think it is entirely possible Neil has 7x or Tx here but his range I don't think is polarised towards these hands and he could have a wide variety of holdings. I would be following up on the turn and betting an amount that priced out draws.

I think at this stage if you fire the turn then pocket pairs that Neil may have called with on the flop will have to sigh/fold with the strength you have shown in the hand (unless Neil plans to get tricky with you which would be exceptional play without 7x or Tx given the way the hand has played).

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

Hi Graham, Hope you're well and good to play against you the other night in the MTT. Just discovered your thread and will slowly make my way through it. Loved Gus Hansen's book and this format. And have already read your first hand and given it some thought. My own conclusion on it was you played it perfectly fine and, controversially(!), I see nothing wrong with the pre-flop 3 bettor's play! Suited gapped connectors is a playable hand with plenty of potential to land a monster flop which will crush pre-flop premium hands. The main point is though, HE was the aggressor- he played the hand strongly by 3-betting and since everyone else just called this bet and didn't put any pressure back on him, then when he flops the nuts he's obviously going to try and get the lot in asap. You can't fault his play after his initial 3-bet. His only debatable move in the entire hand is his initial pre-flop bet and it seems like a perfectly legitimate move to me, albeit not necessarily one I think I'd be looking to make that early in the game. That being said, and bearing in mind you didn't put a foot wrong either, that must have been horrible to see the 10-8 flip over and a giant relief to house up on the river! I think the guy who exited that early from the tournament will have more nightmares about it than you would have done had you lost the hand, because of course he could have played it more passively pre-flop and maybe got to the end of the hand having only lost 1/3rd to 1/2th his stack. Live by the sword, die by the sword eh? Anyway, great thread. Will enjoy dipping in and out of this over the coming weeks as I play on the tables. :-)
Posted by RICHORFORD

Hi Richard, yes it was good sharing a table with you deep in the MTT. I must congratulate you on your improvement btw. I have noticed, very clearly, that your game has improved, so I am not surprised to be coming across you deep into Main Events and £55 Bounty Hunter's etc. So, well done. :=)

Glad you are enjoying the thread. Regarding this first hand. I certainly thought it was "unusual" that he 3bet with T8s so early in the tournament, but I am certainly not critical of it. I think it shows a creative element to his game, which I respect.

When he turned over the T8, I was a little disappointed, but not totally surprised that I was behind. In fact, it was much preferable, to seeing him turn over pocket Jacks, which would have left me drawing very thin.

Clearly I was delighted to see the Jack on the river and get a lucky double up. Yes I did feel for him, however, with Poker, I think you need to embrace the whole game, including the variance. I've probably played over 5 million hands of poker, so I embrace the inevitable good luck when I get it, and accept the inevitable bad luck, when that comes too. I find it best not to be too "attached" to good luck or bad luck, but just try and make the most +ev decisions that you can make each time, and then allow fate/luck to do it's thing, accepting it either way.

Anyhow, I ramble on, clearly I was "over the moon" to house up on the river!

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · May 2016

Hi all.

As we are currently discussing a hand I played against Neil Channing.

I wanted to say at the outset, what a pleasure and priviledge it was to share a table with Neil at the UKPC.

Clearly Neil's insight into the game, is far beyond anything I can muster, and sitting down at the table with a man of his experience/ability, was a great learning experience for me.

He was also great fun and friendly at the table. He told a wonderful "Moth Catcher" joke, with theatrical prowess, expert timing and delivery, just like his poker game.

He's a great ambassador for Sky Poker and for the game in general. I'm so hoping he will bring home a bracelett from the WSOP. So if you are reading this Neil. Thanks, and all the best in Vegas mate!

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

As I mentioned in my post if I was raising this on the flop then I would be looking to fire the turn too as it isn't 'air' hands we are looking to fold and the story told by the betting will have to be convincing. As you mentioned and I noted in my reply I think it is entirely possible Neil has 7x or Tx here but his range I don't think is polarised towards these hands and he could have a wide variety of holdings. I would be following up on the turn and betting an amount that priced out draws. I think at this stage if you fire the turn then pocket pairs that Neil may have called with on the flop will have to sigh/fold with the strength you have shown in the hand (unless Neil plans to get tricky with you which would be exceptional play without 7x or Tx given the way the hand has played).
Posted by markycash

Does everyone agree with Mark here. Should I lead out on this turn?

RICHORFORD · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Hi Richard, yes it was good sharing a table with you deep in the MTT. I must congratulate you on your improvement btw. I have noticed, very clearly, that your game has improved, so I am not surprised to be coming across you deep into Main Events and £55 Bounty Hunter's etc. So, well done. :=) Glad you are enjoying the thread. Regarding this first hand. I certainly thought it was "unusual" that he 3bet with T8s so early in the tournament, but I am certainly not critical of it. I think it shows a creative element to his game, which I respect. When he turned over the T8, I was a little disappointed, but not totally surprised that I was behind. In fact, it was much preferable, to seeing him turn over pocket Jacks, which would have left me drawing very thin. Clearly I was delighted to see the Jack on the river and get a lucky double up. Yes I did feel for him, however, with Poker, I think you need to embrace the whole game, including the variance. I've probably played over 5 million hands of poker, so I embrace the inevitable good luck when I get it, and accept the inevitable bad luck, when that comes too. I find it best not to be too "attached" to good luck or bad luck, but just try and make the most +ev decisions that you can make each time, and then allow fate/luck to do it's thing, accepting it either way. Anyhow, I ramble on, clearly I was "over the moon" to house up on the river! Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

Cheers for your comments re- my play Graham.

I do feel my play has improved a great deal over the past 24 months, although there's still a long way to go before I would class myself as a 'good' player. I think I'd allow myself to be called a 'competent' player these days! ;-) I often go deep in MTTs and have been making a bigger percentage of FTs than I previously did.

I am enjoying my poker more than ever though, which is a good thing after playing it for 16 years as it would have been easy to have lost interest in it by now.

One question regarding the admin of your 'every hand revealed' project: when you say you recorded every detail of the hand into your phone, was that inputting it by text or quietly dictating it verbally into the phone's voice recorder?

Either way it's impressive you could play the hand and record every detail on the table without it being a distraction to yourself or others, or getting the info wrong.

Rich

markycash · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Does everyone agree with Mark here. Should I lead out on this turn?
Posted by StayOrGo

I should probably have said the main reason I would lead the turn and for an amount that prices out draws is that while the flop reraise I feel looks strong... Any drawing hands that opponent has were given a fair price to draw (especially with implied odds if they feel you have 7x or Tx and think will get paid often if they hit). Other parts of the opponents range may have floated to see what you do on the turn.

Again it is entirely possible Neil is sitting with 7x or Tx but I feel that a turn bet that prices out draws and makes it difficult for Neil to continue without 7x or Tx is where we either take the pot down or give up on the pot if we are called.

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : I should probably have said the main reason I would lead the turn and for an amount that prices out draws is that while the flop reraise I feel looks strong... Any drawing hands that opponent has were given a fair price to draw (especially with implied odds if they feel you have 7x or Tx and think will get paid often if they hit). Other parts of the opponents range may have floated to see what you do on the turn. Again it is entirely possible Neil is sitting with 7x or Tx but I feel that a turn bet that prices out draws and makes it difficult for Neil to continue without 7x or Tx is where we either take the pot down or give up on the pot if we are called.
Posted by markycash

Hi Mark, yes, I pretty much saw this as you described. I bet 7K and Neil folded.

Usually I know exactly what type of bet I am making, ie bluff, value bet, semi-bluff, blocker bet etc, although on this occasion, I couldn't categorise the bet. I didn't know if Neil had a draw, a low/medium, pocket pair or a better 7. So I had no idea if it was a successful bluff or if I was ahead all the time.

I just felt that a reasonable sized bet would get him to fold a large part of his range. Also on the flop, he deliberated quite a bit when calling my re-raise.

I know a player of Neil's standard can do this for deception, but I was cautiously optimistic that he would fold, to a decent turn bet, which I considered to be a satisfactory outcome.

I would love to know what Neil had, but it's probably a bit optimistic to expect him to remember the hand. Knowing Neil and his ability, it was probably a very good fold by him.

Are we all done with this hand now? Shall I move on?

Cheers,

G

GELDY · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Hi Mark, yes, I pretty much saw this as you described. I bet 7K and Neil folded. Usually I know exactly what type of bet I am making, ie bluff, value bet, semi-bluff, blocker bet etc, although on this occasion, I couldn't categorise the bet. I didn't know if Neil had a draw, a low/medium, pocket pair or a better 7. So I had no idea if it was a successful bluff or if I was ahead all the time. I just felt that a reasonable sized bet would get him to fold a large part of his range. Also on the flop, he deliberated quite a bit when calling my re-raise. I know a player of Neil's standard can do this for deception, but I was cautiously optimistic that he would fold, to a decent turn bet, which I considered to be a satisfactory outcome. I would love to know what Neil had, but it's probably a bit optimistic to expect him to remember the hand. Knowing Neil and his ability, it was probably a very good fold by him. Are we all done with this hand now? Shall I move on? Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

Would you say there was maybe a bit of ego in the hand as well. We all know that frisson of delight from winning a complex hand against one of the top players. Maybe your play had a bit more of the
Now what do i need to do to win the hand against Neil
As against
Is this a hand that it makes sense to try to win?

chiggypig · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

Knowing Neil and his ability, it was probably a very good fold by him.
Posted by StayOrGo

Neil is certainly great, so I mean nothing bad by him when saying this, but how can it be a very good fold? you had a pair of 7s with a low kicker, you either bluffed him or he had an easy fold surely?

markycash · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Neil is certainly great, so I mean nothing bad by him when saying this, but how can it be a very good fold? you had a pair of 7s with a low kicker, you either bluffed him or he had an easy fold surely?
Posted by chiggypig

I would say it is very possible for Neil to make a very good fold here even if he was ahead.

It is all about the long run and lets just say for example Neil had pocket queens (I am not saying I think he had pocket queens or that folding them would/wouldn't be optimal, just purely as an example). If making a tough disciplined fold with pocket queens in such situations was going to save you a load of chips long term then I would personally say it is a very good fold.

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Neil is certainly great, so I mean nothing bad by him when saying this, but how can it be a very good fold? you had a pair of 7s with a low kicker, you either bluffed him or he had an easy fold surely?
Posted by chiggypig

Hi chiggy, thanks for the feedback.

I guess I was affording Neil the respect, I feel, he deserves, by suggesting he made a good fold.

Folding a lower pocket, or a draw, is still a good fold imo, against an aggressive player.

Many players may make a bad call here with say a flush draw and a gut shot for example.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Would you say there was maybe a bit of ego in the hand as well. We all know that frisson of delight from winning a complex hand against one of the top players. Maybe your play had a bit more of the Now what do i need to do to win the hand against Neil As against Is this a hand that it makes sense to try to win?
Posted by GELDY

Hi Geld. I don't think there was any ego in this play. Although who truely knows what goes on subconsciously in one's mind.

I generally feel that, if my decision making is influenced by ego, that is the start of a very slippery slope.

However, even in the most level headed player, ego can come to the fore in certain situations.

All I will say is that I try very hard to quell it. Did it feel good to win a pot against Neil? (Someone I respect and admire)

YOU BET IT DID! :=)

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Cheers for your comments re- my play Graham. I do feel my play has improved a great deal over the past 24 months, although there's still a long way to go before I would class myself as a 'good' player. I think I'd allow myself to be called a 'competent' player these days! ;-) I often go deep in MTTs and have been making a bigger percentage of FTs than I previously did. I am enjoying my poker more than ever though, which is a good thing after playing it for 16 years as it would have been easy to have lost interest in it by now. One question regarding the admin of your 'every hand revealed' project: when you say you recorded every detail of the hand into your phone, was that inputting it by text or quietly dictating it verbally into the phone's voice recorder? Either way it's impressive you could play the hand and record every detail on the table without it being a distraction to yourself or others, or getting the info wrong. Rich
Posted by RICHORFORD

Hi Rich,

Regarding your above statement in blue.

I recorded the hand details by voice into my phone. I would just step back from the table, after folding the following hand, and quietly record the details. TBH some of the recordings were not "great", and I have to ad lib a tiny bit. For example I may just have recorded "Early Table Position" and I use a poetic license as to whether it was UTG+1 or UTG+2. Or that the river "bricked" rather than the actual card. Also sometimes I forgot to record the actual bet size and had to go with what I thought was about right.

The "essence" of the hands are all the same, but probably arn't 100% factual, but more 95% from as best as I can create from my notes. Gus Hansen, had the advantage of being able to see his hands again on TV, I don't.

However, for anyone thinking of doing this, I would get into a rounting of recording the hand as follows:

Namely:

1) Blind Levels

2) Starting Stack

3) Your Hand

4) Where the action starts (Table Position) and that player's percieved style

5) What the action is (include raise size)

6) Any subsequent action before you act, recording any other players styles that are involved.

7) Your action and Table position.

8) Responses to your action.

9) Flop details. (Then repeat 5-8)

10) Turn details (Repeat 5-8)

11) River details (Repeat 5-8)

Hope this helps.

G

hhyftrftdr · May 2016

Been away so just catching up.

KxKc hand looks a pretty trivial bet fold on the river, but I think I'd lean towards c/c as played (Ivan summed it up nicely)

The flopped straight hand, it looks very strong to check raise the turn into 2 people. They can comfortably fold so much of their range. I'd be more inclined to c/r the flop, or just donk out. Quite like the latter; multiple villains in the hand so we're likely to get action in at least one spot, plenty of hands that will call a bet but might not bet themselves. You also give overpairs a headache when they call the flop and you keep barrelling on turn and river.

The hand vs Neil, as others said folding looks the norm at first, think you have to bet all turns if you c/r the flop, gotta keep that story flowing.

thisltedu · May 2016

Hi Graham,
Just came across this thread today. Many, many thanks for taking the time to post this. I'm sure there are a great many like me who may not be able to add much but are going to read this with interest. Thanks also to those contributing. Too often on TV we see exciting hands but it is the routine hands that are so important and for you to take the time to post all your hands from the tournament will be really enlightening. Looking forward to the rest of this thread.
Donald

StayOrGo · May 2016

You're welcome Donald, glad you are finding it of use.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: THIRD HAND NOW REVEALED:

Good post Benc. I wasn't going to comment on this hand, but it's like I've got an obsession and can't stop! Anyway pre, flop and turn are all fine ofc. I am mostly betting flop but x/c is fine too and is something I would do some of the time. However, I'm not sure that leading the river is my preffered play. When you lead out, your hand looks exactly like what it is - either nut or 2nd nut flush (probably expects you to have AKc or AQc) a fair amount. Do you have any bluffs that play this way as I can't really imagine too many? So if villain is good, do you think he will pay you off with 7x (of which as you pointed out very few are non-FH anyway!) or a low flush (Tc or lower? - he might also fold his J high flush) Which means, we're only really getting value all the time from a Q high flush - and that's a hand that will likely bet for value itself after you check. He might also go for thin value with a J high flush if he thinks you are going to lead K/Q high flushes here. So vs his value hands that we beat, we likely get almost the same value from betting as checking. But by checking we also: - Allow him to bluff - Save ourselves money/a decision if villain decides to go for a raise after we lead. If we think our opponent is such that he will almost never be bluffing river or capable of thin value-betting a J and is v likely to call quite a few worse hands then I think we can make an exploitative lead on the river. You never gave us any reads for this hand, so maybe that was what you thought at the time in which case I do like your river bet. Theory/range wise against a good opponent is where I would not like it. As played, it's an ugh spot that I'm probably not capable of folding except when I'm playing my A game! Too much good odds/sigh call. But I agree with what's been said about his range here.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Hi Ivan, I didn't really get back to you on this post, sorry about that.

Yeh, it's a tricky one this, hence, lots of players with differing opinions. However, you certainly make a good case for check/calling the river here.

The more I think about it, I tend to agree with you. Although, as you mentioned, it's clearly opponent specific.

Unfortuantely my memory is not good enough, and my notes not specific enough to provide more detail on his style. So, with the information, I have provided, you make a good case, and I am slightly swayed to check/calling the river now.

This type of hand is tricky mind, and will ellicit opposing views from good players, but, looking at it against a "Standard" player, for me, in hindsight, check/calling was probably the play, for the reasons that you very clearly explained.

I think at the time, I thought, that I could get stubborn calls from trip 7's, although, that was clearly floored thinking, as most 7x hands made a house as discussed. This to me seems to be the key aspect that tips the balance to a check/call.

There will, however, be plenty of people who may still feel that this would be potentially missing value. But I'm now with you on this one.

Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND FULLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING):

Been away so just catching up. KxKc hand looks a pretty trivial bet fold on the river, but I think I'd lean towards c/c as played (Ivan summed it up nicely) The flopped straight hand, it looks very strong to check raise the turn into 2 people. They can comfortably fold so much of their range. I'd be more inclined to c/r the flop, or just donk out. Quite like the latter; multiple villains in the hand so we're likely to get action in at least one spot, plenty of hands that will call a bet but might not bet themselves. You also give overpairs a headache when they call the flop and you keep barrelling on turn and river. The hand vs Neil, as others said folding looks the norm at first, think you have to bet all turns if you c/r the flop, gotta keep that story flowing.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Thanks for the feedback hhyftrftdr. I think the Check/Call in the KK hand on the river is now probably my prefered play. (I just replied to Ivan's post). I do still feel check/call flop and the check/raising river, in the flopped straight hand, to be the preferable course of action, with the check/call building the pot first, before we come in for a check/raise. I can understand why people may donk lead here, however, I thought, being first to act, will four behind, that I would see how "interested" people were in the pot, before making my play.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · May 2016

UKPC2016 SEVENTH HAND:

===================

Blinds 150/300 Antie 25

Chip Count: 94K

Starting Hand: AcJd

I open raise to 775 in the SB, BB calls

Flop: AhTc6h

I bet 1.1K, BB calls

Turn: 2s

I bet 2.2k, BB calls

River: 2d

I bet 4k, BB calls, I show, AJ, he mucks.

My thought processes:

I sometimes check the flop in these situations, to under rep my hand, but with the Ten and a flush draw for company, I decided on a standard lead. The turn, again, seems a standard lead.

The river seemed a good card, I sometimes check/call in these spots, if I think my opponent may have missed a draw (also pot control against a slow played set/house) However, I thought he could well have a worse Ace, or call with a stubborn ten, as we were in the blinds. So I again went for another value bet.

One point I do remember about this hand, was that his calls, each time, were instant almost. (He found the decisions easy)

Which suggested to me, a likelihood that he had a worse Ace, and that he had set his stall out early to call 3 streets. Also if he did have a flopped set, I would possibly expect some form of time-taking for deception.

He didn't show his hand, but I suspect it was, a worse Ace.

Standard stuff? Anyone play this differently? Thoughts welcome.

Cheers,

G

F_Ivanovic · May 2016

Hi, no worries - as I said, I enjoy posting replies for myself just to think about how I'd play the hand and it's a bonus if someone finds them useful

A lot of my replies are focusing on the theoretical side and balance, but often in live play exploitative play is going to be best since most players we come up against we might only ever meet once. Even online balance can be over-rated and I'm guilty of putting too much emphasis of it when it's not needed - indeed on several occasions recently I've checked strong hands on the river for balance purposes only for villain to either check back or fold to my x/r (despite my line not looking plausible for value)

With your latest hand, it looks like your live tell about villain's hand strength is fairly significant and whilst it's a spot usually I might slow down on 1 street to let my opponent bluff at it, it would be a bad thing to let villain off lightly with a worse Ax. I wish there was more to comment on this hand but it seems pretty standard.

devil_tear · May 2016

B vs b I like your standard C bet here. Its a wet enough board to get value from any pair and you want to charge gutshots and FD's. safe runout means you can comfotably bet 3 streets. The only thing I may have done differently is check river to induce. Alot of draws missed and the "insta -call" can sometimes mean they're on a draw. Reads dependant ofc. Nh.

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SEVENTH HAND REVEALED:

B vs b I like your standard C bet here. Its a wet enough board to get value from any pair and you want to charge gutshots and FD's. safe runout means you can comfotably bet 3 streets. The only thing I may have done differently is check river to induce. Alot of draws missed and the "insta -call" can sometimes mean they're on a draw. Reads dependant ofc. Nh.
Posted by devil_tear

Hi Tim, thx for the feedback. I agree, "insta-calls" can sometimes mean a draw, however, for some reason, I just felt it was a made hand.

Sometimes with draws there is a little hesitation, while they work out, "if they have the odds to call".

I do agree that, insta-calling could be a draw with some opponents, however I did feel it was a worse ace.

Of course, I had the advantage of "being there", so did have the "extra" subliminal information I referred to earlier in this thread.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · May 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SEVENTH HAND REVEALED:

Hi, no worries - as I said, I enjoy posting replies for myself just to think about how I'd play the hand and it's a bonus if someone finds them useful A lot of my replies are focusing on the theoretical side and balance, but often in live play exploitative play is going to be best since most players we come up against we might only ever meet once. Even online balance can be over-rated and I'm guilty of putting too much emphasis of it when it's not needed - indeed on several occasions recently I've checked strong hands on the river for balance purposes only for villain to either check back or fold to my x/r (despite my line not looking plausible for value) With your latest hand, it looks like your live tell about villain's hand strength is fairly significant and whilst it's a spot usually I might slow down on 1 street to let my opponent bluff at it, it would be a bad thing to let villain off lightly with a worse Ax. I wish there was more to comment on this hand but it seems pretty standard.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Hi Ivan.

Yes, with me revealing nearly ALL the hands I played, there will, of course, be some fairly standard ones.

However, I do want to cover the "whole journey", rather than just pick out the interesting ones.

Also, even in the "straight forward" ones there are still dilemmas, like whether to check river for deception/pot control.

Some people may ALWAYS just bet three streets as standard in this spot. (On auto-pilot.) So it may be useful to them, to at least consider other alternatives, even if they still go for the three standard leads in the end.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 59: DEJA VU. DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?

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