StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 59: DEJA VU. DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?

F_Ivanovic · June 2016

You might be right - it's smaller than I would go, but definitely not too unusual.

Stack size is and position are the 2 main factors in how I size my 3b usually vs unknowns. In cash games 100bb deep for instance I will usually go between 2.5x and 3x if I'm making a 3b IP and then around 3.5x OOP. More opponents too and I'll 3b a larger amount since few hands we 3b want to go multi-way. It was my impression you were this deep (or deeper?) at this stage, hence the larger 3b amount I suggested.

Later in the tournament when stack-sizes are sub 50bb then I am definitely sizing smaller and would make it your size 3 way and Gary's size if it was just HU.

Anyway, moving onto your following hands: I think in hand 1 I would strongly consider a double barrel (with a view to maybe triple barrel) Unless we've seen opponent slow-playing before (and even if we have) it's pretty unlikely that we will be raised off our equity by betting and if we hit our hand it will be very disguised too. We have a much stronger range than villain too given we raised in HJ and he called in the BB so we can put in him tough spots even if he has a decently strong Ax like AT or AJ since we will have so many AQ/AK hands here. Obviously if he has AJ too then a J river would be a dream for us.

2nd hand I think it's fine to just give up.

3rd hand is standard. Definitely c-b this hand since it's probably our best chance of winning the pot by taking it down now.

StayOrGo · June 2016

STACK SIZE SUMMARY:

I have 102K and I am just about chip leader on the table, although there are a lot of stacks between 50k-90k. Tournament average stack is about 65K.

UKPC2016 FIFTEENTH HAND:

====================

Blinds 250/500 Antie 75

Chip Count: 102K

Starting Hand: AdQh

I raise to 1.2K, in the CUTOFF, Button folds, SB 3bets to 3.3K, BB folds. I 4bet to 8.8K, SB folds.

My thought processes:

I think this is a standard 4bet for me here. I think to some cash games players, it may be a call, but in MTT's at this stage I prefer, to either:

1) Fold (If my opponent is VERY tight)

or, more often,

2) 4bet.

If he 5bet, I'd probably fold, although against some opponents it could be either, a call or a six bet. It would depend upon the table dynamic to that point, and if there was any potential "leveling" going on.

I was quite happy to win the pot uncontested and add just over 4k to my stack.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to comment.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · June 2016

UKPC2016 SIXTEENTH HAND:

====================

Blinds 250/500 Antie 75

Chip Count: 105K

Starting Hand: AdJd

UTG+1 (Has an aggressive style, 80k stack) raises to 1.3K, I 3bet in the HJ to 3.5k, Button (Has 90k) "Cold Calls", blinds folds, UTG+1 calls.

FLOP: 8d,8c,6d

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My thought processes so far:

PRE FLOP

======

I'm fairly happy to 3bet here with AJs despite the original raiser being UTG+1, as he is an aggresive opener, that often folds to 3bets. Some people may call, but as you know I have a real dislike of calling early table position raises with these types of holdings. So I happily 3bet. A surprising "cold call" by the Button, and then a slightly less surprising call by the original raiser.

POST FLOP: So I have the nut flush draw on a paired board. UTG+1 checks.

** ON ME **

WHAT DO YOU GUYS DO HERE? (PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT, ALL THOUGHTS/OPINIONS WELCOME FROM PRO'S, RECREATIONAL PLAYERS AND NOVICES ALIKE)

Cheers,

G

FeelGroggy · June 2016

I just wrote a reply but i apparently wasn't logged in so i lost it

The AQo i think a 4bet is a reasonable play to make. Flatting is also fine. AQo doesn't flop too well so going to the flop as the preflop aggressor makes it easier to play.

with the AJd, a hand that plays quite well vs an active UTG +1 player I think I prefer flatting as opposed to 3betting for value.

When we flop a flush draw I think a cbet is the most obvious way to proceed, with us having the strongest range on a board that shouldn't hit either play super hard. I think the button cold caller probably has the strongest range of the two and could have hands like 99-JJ, AQ, KQs maybe even AK/QQ that he doesn't want to 4bet and face a 5bet with. I would cbet and my action on the turn would depend on who called/ what came on the turn.

thisltedu · June 2016

Since you ask for comments from all levels for hand 16 I'll give my thoughts.
I'm normally c betting but taking the time to look at the options I'm check calling. There are a lot of pairs in their ranges that I don't think a c bet will fold out and I will not be happy on the turn facing a call to my c bet unless I improve. Even if we hit the flush we don't want to get it all in on a paired board so I want to pot control.
This is a great hand for me to actually stop and think about because it is probably one of my biggest leaks. I build a decent stack as you have done. Get a pretty hand and bluff/semi-bluff off a load of chips.
Interested to see what the rest say.

Itsover4u · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

Since you ask for comments from all levels for hand 16 I'll give my thoughts. I'm normally c betting but taking the time to look at the options I'm check calling. There are a lot of pairs in their ranges that I don't think a c bet will fold out and I will not be happy on the turn facing a call to my c bet unless I improve. Even if we hit the flush we don't want to get it all in on a paired board so I want to pot control. This is a great hand for me to actually stop and think about because it is probably one of my biggest leaks. I build a decent stack as you have done. Get a pretty hand and bluff/semi-bluff off a load of chips. Interested to see what the rest say.
Posted by thisltedu

I would also be checking - but more likely with the idea of check raising if last to act chucks out a bet. I think it looks super strong in this spot.

I cant see the exact flop in the post but we are continuing our story.

Essexphil · June 2016

7K now, c.12K on turn regardless of whether hit or miss

Nice thread btw

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

I just wrote a reply but i apparently wasn't logged in so i lost it The AQo i think a 4bet is a reasonable play to make. Flatting is also fine. AQo doesn't flop too well so going to the flop as the preflop aggressor makes it easier to play. with the AJd, a hand that plays quite well vs an active UTG +1 player I think I prefer flatting as opposed to 3betting for value. When we flop a flush draw I think a cbet is the most obvious way to proceed, with us having the strongest range on a board that shouldn't hit either play super hard. I think the button cold caller probably has the strongest range of the two and could have hands like 99-JJ, AQ, KQs maybe even AK/QQ that he doesn't want to 4bet and face a 5bet with. I would cbet and my action on the turn would depend on who called/ what came on the turn.
Posted by FeelGroggy

Hi Danny, many thanks for your response, much appreciated.

Yes it is the "cold caller" that I am most wary off.

I think he could have a whole range of pairs. Sometimes people play KK or AA like this, as a cold 4bet looks SO strong.

Also we are 180 BB's deep, so whilst I expect most people to fold low pocket pairs, it is possible that he may consider set mining.

To me his range, roughly looked like this

22-77 - 15%

88-AA - 65%

AK, AQs - 10%

Other - 10%

I will give a few more people a chance to reply before I discuss the actual flop action.

Incidently, what would you do if your flop continuation bet, met with a re-raise?

Thanks again for the feedback.

G

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

Since you ask for comments from all levels for hand 16 I'll give my thoughts. I'm normally c betting but taking the time to look at the options I'm check calling. There are a lot of pairs in their ranges that I don't think a c bet will fold out and I will not be happy on the turn facing a call to my c bet unless I improve. Even if we hit the flush we don't want to get it all in on a paired board so I want to pot control. This is a great hand for me to actually stop and think about because it is probably one of my biggest leaks. I build a decent stack as you have done. Get a pretty hand and bluff/semi-bluff off a load of chips. Interested to see what the rest say.
Posted by thisltedu

Hi Donald, many thanks for your reply.

As I alluded to in my response to Danny, I agree with you. There are a lot of pairs, in their ranges (particularly the cold calller), that arn't folding to a flop C-bet.

Will respond with actual flop action a little later. Thanks again for your feedback.

G

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : I would also be checking - but more likely with the idea of check raising if last to act chucks out a bet. I think it looks super strong in this spot. I cant see the exact flop in the post but we are continuing our story.
Posted by Itsover4u

Thanks for this Itsover4u, check/raising is definately a consideration here.

However, lets just suppose, for now, that the cold caller does have a pair. Should we still check/raise if he bets? (I'm not saying we shouldn't, I'm just asking the question)

Cheers,

G

hhyftrftdr · June 2016

A lot of pairs that aren't folding to an initial cbet, but a lot of pairs that won't be able to withstand pressure for 3 streets.

I think checking kinda gives the game up a little bit, and we have more than enough equity plus a strong perceived range to empty the clip.

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

7K now, c.12K on turn regardless of whether hit or miss Nice thread btw
Posted by Essexphil

Hi Essex,

Thanks for this reply, I can definately see the merits of leading out two streets here.

However if you were to believe (as I did) that the chance of the "cold caller" having a pocket pair was very likely (80% imo - subjective of course) would you still do the same? (I'm not saying you shouldn't btw)

Also, how would you respond if re-raised on either turn or river?

The notes in my recording went something like this, "The Button Cold Called, probably a pocket pair."

So I seemed quite convinced at the time that it was a pocket pair. Not everyone plays the same, but to me, AQ usually folds here, and AK, 4bets, so cold calls, can often be pocket pairs.

Cheers for the feedback.

G

P.S. Interestingly 4 replies from very good players, 4 different opinions :=) Don't you just love poker?

StayOrGo · June 2016

Any more thoughts anyone?

I'll wait a while for more thoughts/comments, then reveal the flop action later this evening. :=)

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HANDS 12,13 and 14 REVEALED (THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY):

You might be right - it's smaller than I would go, but definitely not too unusual. Stack size is and position are the 2 main factors in how I size my 3b usually vs unknowns. In cash games 100bb deep for instance I will usually go between 2.5x and 3x if I'm making a 3b IP and then around 3.5x OOP. More opponents too and I'll 3b a larger amount since few hands we 3b want to go multi-way. It was my impression you were this deep (or deeper?) at this stage, hence the larger 3b amount I suggested. Later in the tournament when stack-sizes are sub 50bb then I am definitely sizing smaller and would make it your size 3 way and Gary's size if it was just HU. Anyway, moving onto your following hands: I think in hand 1 I would strongly consider a double barrel (with a view to maybe triple barrel) Unless we've seen opponent slow-playing before (and even if we have) it's pretty unlikely that we will be raised off our equity by betting and if we hit our hand it will be very disguised too. We have a much stronger range than villain too given we raised in HJ and he called in the BB so we can put in him tough spots even if he has a decently strong Ax like AT or AJ since we will have so many AQ/AK hands here. Obviously if he has AJ too then a J river would be a dream for us. 2nd hand I think it's fine to just give up. 3rd hand is standard. Definitely c-b this hand since it's probably our best chance of winning the pot by taking it down now.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

I just explained the KK hand to Gary (Hand 9), as he rarely goes on the forum, and hasn't seen this thread.

He says he would make it 2.4k with all of his range that he 3bets with. So that's his take on it.

Also, as you alluded to Ivan, his 3bet sizes become smaller at the latter stages.

Cheers,

G1 and G2

weecheez1 · June 2016

i would make a small raise here and make a judgement after that the cold caller imo has a pocket pair (a fold is not out of the question )

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

A lot of pairs that aren't folding to an initial cbet, but a lot of pairs that won't be able to withstand pressure for 3 streets. I think checking kinda gives the game up a little bit, and we have more than enough equity plus a strong perceived range to empty the clip.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Thanks for the feedback hhyftrftdr. So you are in the betting two streets camp with Essex Phil?

If so, what if you get re-raised on the flop? Are you getting it in? Is that what you mean by emptying the clip?

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

i would make a small raise here and make a judgement after that the cold caller imo has a pocket pair
Posted by weecheez1

Thanks for this weecheez1, so you lead out a small amount. In line with questions I asked the others. If you are re-raised on the flop, what would your response be?

Cheers,

G

weecheez1 · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : Thanks for this weecheez1, so you lead out a small amount. In line with questions I asked the others. If you are re-raised on the flop, what would your response be? Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

sorry mate i was editing as you posted

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : sorry mate i was editing as you posted
Posted by weecheez1

No worries, so do you fold/call or 4bet if re-raised by the cold caller on the flop?

weecheez1 · June 2016

if the cold caller reraised my flopraise i think i would fold

bbMike · June 2016

Think I like c-betting and firing 3 oppo dependent. So few 8x hands are around maybe UTG+1 is more likely than button to hold an 8 but with 2 out its hard, so we've likely got the over cards and the nut flush draw. I'd be calling a flop raise as a float and hoping he checks behind on turn (assuming we're vs button). We have the strongest range and equity if they don't believe us.

Think I'd go to around 4.5k (just under half) as I think this size controls the pot size a little better, probably then a bit bigger on a missed turn to pressure those mid pairs.

Decent hand this one as sometimes I might also opt to check to attempt to see the turn for free, but then it's hard to keep calling vs button and therefore might opt to raise turn.

So in summary, no idea!!

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

if the cold caller reraised my flopraise i think i would fold
Posted by weecheez1

OK thanks for this response, we have a 5th opinion. :=) #LOVE_THIS_GAME

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

Think I like c-betting and firing 3 oppo dependent. So few 8x hands are around maybe UTG+1 is more likely than button to hold an 8 but with 2 out its hard, so we've likely got the over cards and the nut flush draw. I'd be calling a flop raise as a float and hoping he checks behind on turn (assuming we're vs button). We have the strongest range and equity if they don't believe us. Think I'd go to around 4.5k (just under half) as I think this size controls the pot size a little better, probably then a bit bigger on a missed turn to pressure those mid pairs. Decent hand this one as sometimes I might also opt to check to attempt to see the turn for free, but then it's hard to keep calling vs button and therefore might opt to raise turn. So in summary, no idea!!
Posted by bbMike

LOL. Thanks Mike. I like the "No idea" bit! :=)

It is a very tricky one, and we are still just on the flop. I'm a bit confused? Are you check/calling the flop? Or betting 4.5K? Lets suppose your 4.5K bet met with a re-raise to 12K, what do you do? (Or is the 4.5k bet you are referring to, a turn/river bet if it goes check/check on earlier streets?)

Cheers,

G

bbMike · June 2016

I rested to bet 4.5k on flop and would call a raise to 12k, though I'd want to know more about the standard/style of the button. I think there is a chance they can check back turn if we take this line, and can comfortably bet for value on river if one of those two cards pairs us or makes our flush. If they bet flop and turn I prefer raising turn though it could be suicide I think it would make it very tough for them.

FeelGroggy · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : Hi Danny, many thanks for your response, much appreciated. Yes it is the "cold caller" that I am most wary off. I think he could have a whole range of pairs. Sometimes people play KK or AA like this, as a cold 4bet looks SO strong. Also we are 180 BB's deep, so whilst I expect most people to fold low pocket pairs, it is possible that he may consider set mining. To me his range, roughly looked like this 22-77 - 15% 88-AA - 65% AK, AQs - 10% Other - 10% I will give a few more people a chance to reply before I discuss the actual flop action. Incidently, what would you do if your flop continuation bet, met with a re-raise? Thanks again for the feedback. G
Posted by StayOrGo

I think the cold caller will call one bet a reasonable amount of the time, but with our flush draw we can bet most turns and apply pressure to a lot of his hands. Also if we want to be value betting hands like QQ KK AA it makes sense to have some hands we cbet as bluff. Our ace high as it stands is unlikely good so semi bluffing it down the streets seems like a good option. We have pretty good equity vs most his holdings anyway so betting allows us to build a pot for when we do improve. I would probably be looking to fire 40-50% pot on the flop to keep his calling range wider and put in a slightly chunkier bet on the turn so that the turn bet has more fold equity.

I would be surprised if the flop cbet got reraised by the cold caller, as he shouldn't really have 8x in his hand and 66/88 is really hard to have. I probably just call the raise, as I would with AA if I had it here.

If the earlier position player showed aggression I would be more concerned, as I think he's the most likely to have an 8

CraigSG1 · June 2016

A number of factors here make this a very interesting hand a spot I feel a lot of us get into.

Firstly we are representing a very strong range by 3 betting an UTG+1 raise, then you have the rather frustrating fact that the button cold calls your 3 bet with the UTG still to act AND the fact that you will now be OOP and THEN the original raiser calls.

Then there is the flop. Over cards and a the nut FD, usually a dream flop for a 3 bettor. But its a paired board, against two strong percieved ranges and we are OOP to one of them.

Ranging the UTG we can rule out AA and probably KK and AKo variations. He likely has 99-QQ, AKs and maybe AQs. I would also rule out AA for the button (not fully but versus a UTG raise and a player willing to raise that player then AA would like to get it HUs at the least and hopefully even it all in pre against one of you). Same for KK, I cant see button flatting KK and letting 2 opponents in. It strikes as AKs or QQ, maybe JJ.

The point is if we are to bet this flop we know that this is likely going to be a 2 or even 3 barrell situation. If we check and call i dont think we give away the value of our hand as we could easily be doing this with AA,KK so therefore we can try and hit without being blown off our hand, get some information but also set up a situation where we could c/r the turn and look super strong wether we hit or not. If anyone raises or continues after that we can be almost certain we are behind and get away on the river.

StayOrGo · June 2016

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME):

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : I think the cold caller will call one bet a reasonable amount of the time, but with our flush draw we can bet most turns and apply pressure to a lot of his hands. Also if we want to be value betting hands like QQ KK AA it makes sense to have some hands we cbet as bluff. Our ace high as it stands is unlikely good so semi bluffing it down the streets seems like a good option. We have pretty good equity vs most his holdings anyway so betting allows us to build a pot for when we do improve. I would probably be looking to fire 40-50% pot on the flop to keep his calling range wider and put in a slightly chunkier bet on the turn so that the turn bet has more fold equity. I would be surprised if the flop cbet got reraised by the cold caller, as he shouldn't really have 8x in his hand and 66/88 is really hard to have. I probably just call the raise, as I would with AA if I had it here. If the earlier position player showed aggression I would be more concerned, as I think he's the most likely to have an 8
Posted by FeelGroggy

Thanks for this Danny. your logic is well explained. I think there are lots of viable options here.

However, as I feel fairly certain he has a pocket pair, I decide to check.

Will detail the remaining flop action and the turn card in the next post.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · June 2016

UKPC2016 SIXTEENTH HAND: (REMAINING FLOP ACTION AND TURN CARD)

==================================================

Blinds 250/500 Antie 75

Chip Count: 105K

Starting Hand: AdJd

UTG+1 (Has an aggressive style, 80k stack) raises to 1.3K, I 3bet in the HJ to 3.5k, Button (Has 90k) "Cold Calls", blinds folds, UTG+1 calls.

FLOP: 8d,8c,6d

I decide to check. The cold caller makes it 4.5k, UTG+1 folds and I decide, for reasons discussed previously, to just call.

TURN: Kd (So we hit the nut flush)

** ON ME AGAIN ** PLEASE POST CONTINUED THOUGHTS:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO WE HAVE CHECK/CALLED THE FLOP (LIKE IT OR NOT)

WHAT DO WE DO NOW WE'VE HIT THE NUT FLUSH? WE ARE OOP, SO IT IS US TO ACT.

(AGAIN, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT. THOUGHTS/OPINIONS WELCOME FROM ALL!)

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo · June 2016

To assist our summarisation. Let me suggest our options on the turn are the following:

1) Check/Fold

2) Check/Call

3a) Check/Raise/5bet a 4bet

3b) Check/Raise/Fold to 4bet

3c) Check/Raise/Call a 4bet

4) Bet/Fold to RR

5) Bet/Call a RR

6) Bet/4bet a RR

Which camp are you in? :=)

Cheers,

G

unknown_username · June 2016

i bet call a reraise here. he may have a house but we playing for a flush and then get it so folding shouldnt be a option unless he shoves then massive decision

roughly half the pot id bet

StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 59: DEJA VU. DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?

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