StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: HAND 59: DEJA VU. DO YOU CALL AN ALL IN WITH POCKET JACKS HERE?

StayOrGo

UKPC2016 EIGHTH  HAND:

==================

Blinds 200/400 Antie 50

Chip Count: 98K

Starting Hand: AhTh

I open raise to 900 from the HJ, Button calls, blinds fold.

Flop: Ad8s7d

I bet 1.2K (into Pot of 2.8k) , Button calls

Turn: Ks

I bet 3.5K (into Pot of 5.2k) , Button folds.

My thought processes:

Fairly standard open and flop bet. The turn bet was slightly bigger than normal, due to the double flush draw and straight draw. I think this is fairly standard play. Pretty boring hand, sorry.

Standard stuff? Anyone play this differently? Thoughts welcome.

Cheers,

G

P.S. To make things easier, I have added the pot size in brackets on the flop and turn bets, I'll do this as standard from now on.

markycash

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SEVENTH HAND REVEALED:

UKPC2016 EIGHTH  HAND: ================== Blinds 200/400 Antie 50 Chip Count: 98K Starting Hand: AhTh I open raise to 900 from the HJ, Button calls, blinds fold. Flop: Ad8s7d I bet 1.2K, Button calls Turn: Ks I bet 3.5K, Button folds. My thought processes: Fairly standard open and flop bet. The turn bet was slightly bigger than normal, due to the double flush draw and straight draw. I think this is fairly standard play. Pretty boring hand, sorry. Standard stuff? Anyone play this differently? Thoughts welcome. Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

All looks pretty standard to me.

Itsover4u

looks standard to me

StayOrGo

As hands 8 and 9 are fairly standard, I will post them both today.

UKPC2016 NINTH  HAND:

=================

Blinds 200/400 Antie 50

Chip Count: 100K

Starting Hand: KdKs

Neil Channing raises to 800 on the button, SB calls, I re-raise to 2.4K, Neil calls, SB calls.

Flop: Jh,Qh,4s

SB checks, I bet 4K (into a pot of 7.6K), Neil folds, SB folds.

My thought processes:

Again, I think this is fairly standard. We could perhaps discuss raise sizing.

Standard stuff? Thoughts on Raise sizes?

Cheers,

G

F_Ivanovic

Hand 8 I'm probably betting bigger OTF too - board is already drawy, and connects with some of BTN's flatting range. Think I'd make it about 60% pot. Checking is a valid option too but I'd prefer some reads before checking. Turn looks standard to me and I like the sizing.

Hand 9 your sizing is too small pre-flop IMO especially against a player like Neil who will be quite happy to flat the 3b fairly wide IP - I think we should make it somewhere between 2.8 and 3.4k with our entire range. 

jordz16

Yep 1st hand i probably play the same,

2nd hand I'd be raising to about 3.2k as standard, then just over half pot on that flop.

StayOrGo

Interesting thoughts on sizing by Ivan and Jordz for the 9th hand. Thanks for the feedback.

Before I address this, I would like you both (And anyone else that wants to) to prioritise what you think your preferred outcome would be (pre flop) after making the 3bet with KK.

I have just selected 4 options to choose from:

If you could label them 1 to 4 (1 being your most preferred outcome, 4 being your least preferred). Once we have determined/discussed this, then we can go back to the question of sizing.

The reason for this, is that if we have differing preferred outcomes, then that may affect our sizing choice. The four selections below are in random order. I will detail my preferred outcome sequence (and why) after you have responded.

Neil 4bets, SB folds, and back on us.

Both Fold

Both Call

Neil Calls, SB folds

Cheers,

G

jordz16

I dont think any of them outcomes are bad in that spot, but obviously without knowing the chip stacks of the 2 other players you cant really answer that question.

But i shall answer generally.

Getting 4 bet would normally be best in that spot,

getting called by 1 player

both players folding

both players calling

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED:

I dont think any of them outcomes are bad in that spot, but obviously without knowing the chip stacks of the 2 other players you cant really answer that question. But i shall answer generally. Getting 4 bet would normally be best in that spot, getting called by 1 player both players folding both players calling
Posted by jordz16

Cheers Jordz, everyone was still very deep > 150BB's each.

Interesting how different people view things, my order is:

1st:    Neil 4 betting

2nd:   Both players calling

3rd:    One player calling

4th:    Both players folding.

With both players calling being my 2nd best outcome and both folding being the least favourable imo, this could explain why I chose to 3bet less than you suggesteed.

I'll leave this open for Ivan and others to comment, before discussing further.

Cheers,

G

F_Ivanovic

Like with every spot in poker, we want to focus on our range and not our actual hand (unless we are doing something for exploitative reasons - which against a player of Neil's calibre is not something I'd want to do) - sure, with KK, we are quite happy if both players call us. (I'm not sure if it's that much better than just getting 1 call tho due to implied odds 3rd player is getting with certain hands) But if we have a hand like AKo, JJ or even a bluff (depending what the bluff is) then having both players call is not always going to be as ideal - and just having the 1 caller will suit us better.

I think given how deep we are too we can make it bigger and still get the desired outcome often enough to make it the better play.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED:

Like with every spot in poker, we want to focus on our range and not our actual hand (unless we are doing something for exploitative reasons - which against a player of Neil's calibre is not something I'd want to do) - sure, with KK, we are quite happy if both players call us. (I'm not sure if it's that much better than just getting 1 call tho due to implied odds 3rd player is getting with certain hands) But if we have a hand like AKo, JJ or even a bluff (depending what the bluff is) then having both players call is not always going to be as ideal - and just having the 1 caller will suit us better. I think given how deep we are too we can make it bigger and still get the desired outcome often enough to make it the better play.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Yes, I think I make it slightly bigger with hands like, AK, AQ, JJ, but with KK, I'm quite happy for both to call and have a decent sized pot going to the flop. I'm still favourite to win, imo and any flop, river, turn bets will all be significantly bigger as a result. I am happy for the pot to start off big with my holding.

StayOrGo

Another hand against Neil, we seemed to tangle a lot. :=)

UKPC2016 TENTH  HAND:

=================

Blinds 200/400 Antie 50

Chip Count: 104K

Starting Hand: KdQh

Neil Channing raises to 800 in the HJ, I re-raise to 2.4K on the button, SB folds, BB folds, Neil folds.

My thought processes:

I may come in for some criticism for 3betting with KQo here, however, my style of play, doesn't call too much in these spots, so I much prefer to either 3bet or fold to Neil's open. I decided that Neil had been opening quite a lot, so I went for the 3bet option.

Feel free to comment, however most people would probably say, for various reasons, that I should call here, so it may be an arbitrary discussion regarding the merits of calling compared to re-raising, as the benefits and drawbacks of both are fairly widely known.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

UKPC2016 ELEVENTH  HAND:

===================

Blinds 200/400 Antie 50

Chip Count: 106K

Starting Hand: JdJh

UTG+1 raises to 900, I re-raise to 2.8K on HJ, blinds fold, original raiser calls.

Flop: AsKdQd

UTG+1 donk leads 4K (into a pot of 7.6K), I fold.

My thought processes:

I would suggest this is fairly standard. My opponent said after the hand, that he had AA (slow played it pre)

Feel free to comment.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

Is it OK to keep these hands coming on a daily basis, or should I slow down a little to give more people a chance to read, digest and comment?

If memory serves me correctly, it was at about this time, that Ryan Spittles joined the table, directly to my left. (Neil is two to my right as you probably realised by now.) So an interesting little "Sky Poker" dynamic going on.

Cheers,

G

unknown_username

please  keep em coming very very good read.

imo much more fun to raise and makes more sense to me aswell. 

you reckon 11th hand has aa? and how long you think before folding here?

dont think id play either differantly.

really enjoying thread

thanks

Lambert180

I'm not adverse to 3betting the KQo on the button, calling is also fine too of course. I'd probably do a mixture of the two, and it'd depend on who the opener was, but yeah I think anything other than folding can't be bad.

With the JJ hand, as played I'd definitely be folding the flop too, nothing else we can do imo. 

Given positions though I might consider just flatting JJ pre... most people's UTG+1 range is already gonna be pretty strong, once they've opened and been 3bet, their range to continue will be reallllly strong so when we 3bet JJ we often aren't gonna be in totally fantastic shape against their range. Flatting just disguises/under-reps our hand and avoids building a massive pot going into what is often gonna be a pretty marginal spot.

VespaPX

Not really qualified to pass comment but i am enjoying reading them.

Cheers

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED:

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED : Yes, I think I make it slightly bigger with hands like, AK, AQ, JJ, but with KK, I'm quite happy for both to call and have a decent sized pot going to the flop. I'm still favourite to win, imo and any flop, river, turn bets will all be significantly bigger as a result. I am happy for the pot to start off big with my holding.
Posted by StayOrGo

I know we've moved onto the next hand now but I'll quickly reply to this. I remember earlier in the thread we were discussing open raise sizings and you mentioned how you keep your raise size the same, regardless of your hand so as to avoid giving anything away. Yet here you believe it's OK to make different sizings depending on your hand, so I'm curious as to why? I think it's particularly worse here when we know we are playing an experienced player such as Neil who will likely be continuuing with a lot of hands that can crack big hands - and will be able to make your life difficult on bad boards for your hand.

Of course, it's possible to have different 3b sizes and remain balanced, but it's a lot harder to do than with open raise sizes pre-flop (due to being a smaller range of hands & given we have an option just to call too) and it's generally better to just 3b the same amount no matter what hand we have. If BTN wasn't Neil in this instance but was instead a weaker player then I think making an exploitative 3b size is completely fine. Even so, I think $2.8k probably is called exactly as much as $2.4k

F_Ivanovic

I agree mostly with Lambert re. tenth and eleventh hands. There's a few problems with 3b KQ here: The first is that we end up folding out hands that we dominate (KJo/QJo/KTo/QTo) whilst he continues with hands that dominate us (AQ/AK). The second problem is that suppose we want to set-mine OTB here with 55-TT or flat with a suited connector and the flop comes K84. If we hit 2nd pair with a hand like 87 or 89 here or have 55-TT (not including 88 ofc) - our opponent can comfortably barrel us off our hand with a bluff since he knows we have very few hands containing a K. He can also comfortably value-bet wide too with KJ or KT - hands that would be wary of going for thin value if KQ is very much in our range.

That said, there's still the suited combos of KQ/KJ that play well as a flat call and 3b KQo as a merge to make him pay more to see the flop with his suited connectors/medium pairs or hands like A9-AJ where he will then be OOP.

markycash

Catching up, have not go to the last hand yet.

Regarding the KQo on the BTN...

I think it comes down to styles, who opened the pot and our/oppenent's stack sizes.

In this spot I think 3 betting KQo is perfectly fine. I remember watching a video analysing a top players MTT win and there was discussion about BTN 3 bet ranges to LP openers and this highly profitable (but not overly aggro) player had no problem coming over the top with KJo. Obviously subject to stack sizes etc etc etc.

I think something that will become a bigger issue the deeper you get with this will be the opponent's stack sizes in hands, not sure if you kept note of this info?

markycash

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: TENTH AND ELEVENTH HANDS REVEALED (RYAN SPITTLES JOINS THE AFFRAY):

I agree mostly with Lambert re. tenth and eleventh hands. There's a few problems with 3b KQ here: The first is that we end up folding out hands that we dominate (KJo/QJo/KTo/QTo) whilst he continues with hands that dominate us (AQ/AK). The second problem is that suppose we want to set-mine OTB here with 55-TT or flat with a suited connector and the flop comes K84. If we hit 2nd pair with a hand like 87 or 89 here or have 55-TT (not including 88 ofc) - our opponent can comfortably barrel us off our hand with a bluff since he knows we have very few hands containing a K. He can also comfortably value-bet wide too with KJ or KT - hands that would be wary of going for thin value if KQ is very much in our range. That said, there's still the suited combos of KQ/KJ that play well as a flat call and 3b KQo as a merge to make him pay more to see the flop with his suited connectors/medium pairs or hands like A9-AJ where he will then be OOP.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

I think this could easily be balanced out by playing some low pairs for a 3 bet and some as a set mine. I know there may be heightened risks but taking the initiative with some low pairs and 3 betting in position to balance out the QKo 3 bets wouldn't be a big problem and would include very inflated rewards when we make the set. A lot of the time we will take extra chips down with the 3bets with low pairs and often shake off middling pairs because we have taken the initiative.

The first point about the calling ranges is valid but I think the calling ranges would be a little wider than suggested and contain a reasonable amount of hands we can play well against on the flop, in position and with the initative.

All in all in this kind of set up I like the 3bet. It is obviously down to individual styles and opponent and stack dependent.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: TENTH AND ELEVENTH HANDS REVEALED (RYAN SPITTLES JOINS THE AFFRAY):

please  keep em coming very very good read. imo much more fun to raise and makes more sense to me aswell.  you reckon 11th hand has aa? and how long you think before folding here? dont think id play either differantly. really enjoying thread thanks
Posted by MICKYBLUE

N1,

Yes I did believe him, it would be a strange spot to make up that he had AA imo.

Folded fairly quickly, although knew instantly that it was a fold. Just took a bit of time, to make it look like I had a decision to make.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: TENTH AND ELEVENTH HANDS REVEALED (RYAN SPITTLES JOINS THE AFFRAY):

I'm not adverse to 3betting the KQo on the button, calling is also fine too of course. I'd probably do a mixture of the two, and it'd depend on who the opener was, but yeah I think anything other than folding can't be bad. With the JJ hand, as played I'd definitely be folding the flop too, nothing else we can do imo.  Given positions though I might consider just flatting JJ pre... most people's UTG+1 range is already gonna be pretty strong, once they've opened and been 3bet, their range to continue will be reallllly strong so when we 3bet JJ we often aren't gonna be in totally fantastic shape against their range. Flatting just disguises/under-reps our hand and avoids building a massive pot going into what is often gonna be a pretty marginal spot.
Posted by Lambert180

Hi Paul, thanks for the feedback. Flatting pre with JJ is not for me in this spot.

Although there are players who standardly flat, JJ, in this spot. So I think it's down to styles. I would be more inclined to flat for deception with AA or KK.

I think this is one where, it's not "right" or "wrong" but depends upon the players style. Some people do very well, calling and playing flops.

For me, I like to, "wherever possible" go into the flop as the "Pre Flop Aggressor" for two reasons. 1) I have more "clues" to my opponents range, than he has of mine, and 2) Far more pots are "taken down" by the "pre flop aggressor" and a continuation bet has more weight to it if you are the PFA.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: TENTH AND ELEVENTH HANDS REVEALED (RYAN SPITTLES JOINS THE AFFRAY):

Not really qualified to pass comment but i am enjoying reading them. Cheers
Posted by VespaPX

N1 Vespa

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED:

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED : I know we've moved onto the next hand now but I'll quickly reply to this. I remember earlier in the thread we were discussing open raise sizings and you mentioned how you keep your raise size the same, regardless of your hand so as to avoid giving anything away. Yet here you believe it's OK to make different sizings depending on your hand, so I'm curious as to why? I think it's particularly worse here when we know we are playing an experienced player such as Neil who will likely be continuuing with a lot of hands that can crack big hands - and will be able to make your life difficult on bad boards for your hand. Of course, it's possible to have different 3b sizes and remain balanced, but it's a lot harder to do than with open raise sizes pre-flop (due to being a smaller range of hands & given we have an option just to call too) and it's generally better to just 3b the same amount no matter what hand we have. If BTN wasn't Neil in this instance but was instead a weaker player then I think making an exploitative 3b size is completely fine. Even so, I think $2.8k probably is called exactly as much as $2.4k
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Hi Ivan, in response to the above, I may vary 3bet sizes more than I do a standard open PFR bets. I think often these hands don't go to showdown, so nothing is given away. I don't vary them a lot, but I do vary them based on my hand sometimes.

I don't think my opponents have seen me go to showdown enough to know that 2.4k instead of 2.8k in this spot signifies a monster. I purposely didn't go smaller than 2.4k because this would start to look more indicative of AA or KK.

If I made it 2.8k, it "may" have caused Neil to fold, and if he folds, SB probably folds too. As I mentioned before, I rather they both call than both fold.

I take your point mind, however, the above response is my take on it.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: TENTH AND ELEVENTH HANDS REVEALED (RYAN SPITTLES JOINS THE AFFRAY):

I agree mostly with Lambert re. tenth and eleventh hands. There's a few problems with 3b KQ here: The first is that we end up folding out hands that we dominate (KJo/QJo/KTo/QTo) whilst he continues with hands that dominate us (AQ/AK). The second problem is that suppose we want to set-mine OTB here with 55-TT or flat with a suited connector and the flop comes K84. If we hit 2nd pair with a hand like 87 or 89 here or have 55-TT (not including 88 ofc) - our opponent can comfortably barrel us off our hand with a bluff since he knows we have very few hands containing a K. He can also comfortably value-bet wide too with KJ or KT - hands that would be wary of going for thin value if KQ is very much in our range. That said, there's still the suited combos of KQ/KJ that play well as a flat call and 3b KQo as a merge to make him pay more to see the flop with his suited connectors/medium pairs or hands like A9-AJ where he will then be OOP.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Hi Ivan. Thanks for this.

As I alluded to earlier, the benefits and drawbacks to folding, calling or 3betting KQ in the spot are fairly widely know. In this situation, the 3bet suits my style better, although it's probably fair to say that I will mix it up with enough folds and calls to be reasonably balanced.

With Neil being the great player that he is, I didn't particularly want to go to the flop against him, unless I was the PFA, as that is more in my comfort zone.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: TENTH AND ELEVENTH HANDS REVEALED (RYAN SPITTLES JOINS THE AFFRAY):

Catching up, have not go to the last hand yet. Regarding the KQo on the BTN... I think it comes down to styles, who opened the pot and our/oppenent's stack sizes. In this spot I think 3 betting KQo is perfectly fine. I remember watching a video analysing a top players MTT win and there was discussion about BTN 3 bet ranges to LP openers and this highly profitable (but not overly aggro) player had no problem coming over the top with KJo. Obviously subject to stack sizes etc etc etc. I think something that will become a bigger issue the deeper you get with this will be the opponent's stack sizes in hands, not sure if you kept note of this info?
Posted by markycash

Hi Mark. Thanks for this.

Regarding stack sizes, everyone's still pretty deep at this stage (unless I mention otherwise)

Later it will be more of an issue for sure. Hopefully I have recorded this information well enough.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

UKPC2016 TWELFTH  HAND:

===================

Blinds 250/500 Antie 75

Chip Count: 105K

Starting Hand: 9hTh

I raise to 1.2K in the HJ and get called by the BB.

Flop: As8d4c

BB checks, I bet 1.5K (into a pot of 3.3K) , BB calls.

Turn: 7c

BB checks, I check.

River: 7s

BB, bets 3.5K (into pot of 6.3K) , I fold.

My thought processes:

I would suggest this is a fairly standard open and C bet. In these scenarios, I'm usually in the, "give it one stab on the flop" camp. Also being in position and turning an open-ender, I thought I'd see a free card so  I checked back the turn. I gave up on the river, accepting that I was beat. Sometimes you have to fold. :=)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UKPC2016 THIRTEENTH  HAND:

=====================

Blinds 250/500 Antie 75

Chip Count: 102K

Starting Hand: AsTh

I raise to 1.1K, UTG+2 and get called by the button, blinds fold.

Flop: Ks8s5d

I bet 2K (into a pot of 3.6K) , button calls.

Turn: 9d

I check, Button bets 4K (into a pot of 7.6K) , I fold

My thought processes:

Again, I would suggest this is a fairly standard open, one C bet, then give up.  

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UKPC2016 FOURTEENTH  HAND:

=====================

Blinds 250/500 Antie 75

Chip Count: 98K

Starting Hand: Jc8s

I raise to 1.2K, in the CUTOFF and get called by the SB and BB

Flop: Qd4s2h

SB checks, BB checks, I bet 2.2K (into a pot of 4.2K) , SB folds, BB folds.

My thought processes:

Possibly a little bit of a wide open. I'm not over keen on C-bet bluffing Q high flops against two opponents, but being in position and it being a rainbow board with minimal straight draws it seemed to be the best option. This one came off, third time lucky I guess. :=)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to comment on the above three hands. This is the day to day type of stuff that can be quite useful to discuss. Although there will also be a plethora of opinions I'm sure, so we may need to agree to disagree, or put it down to players styles. I do appreciate that the information that I have provided about my opponents in these three hands is a bit sparse (Or in other words, non-existent). Clearly in the heat of battle, it can be difficult to record all the details, and I have no recollection of it now.

Cheers,

G

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED:

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED : Hi Ivan, in response to the above, I may vary 3bet sizes more than I do a standard open PFR bets. I think often these hands don't go to showdown, so nothing is given away. I don't vary them a lot, but I do vary them based on my hand sometimes. I don't think my opponents have seen me go to showdown enough to know that 2.4k instead of 2.8k in this spot signifies a monster. I purposely didn't go smaller than 2.4k because this would start to look more indicative of AA or KK. If I made it 2.8k, it "may" have caused Neil to fold, and if he folds, SB probably folds too. As I mentioned before, I rather they both call than both fold. I take your point mind, however, the above response is my take on it. Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

Whilst it's true that it's a rarer scenario and that you won't go to showdown as much, population tendencies may mean someone reads your hand strength correctly despite them not having any previous reads on you. It would have been interesting if you had hidden your cards for this one because I'm sure I would have guessed at you having a strong hand - either KK or AA based off the 3b size since lots of players do the same. 

Taking account of population tendencies can often be important when you are playing largely against unknown players because you don't want to do something that's going to be percieved a certain way.

Anyway, that's enough comment from me about that hand!

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED:

In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: EIGHTH AND NINTH HANDS REVEALED : Whilst it's true that it's a rarer scenario and that you won't go to showdown as much, population tendencies may mean someone reads your hand strength correctly despite them not having any previous reads on you. It would have been interesting if you had hidden your cards for this one because I'm sure I would have guessed at you having a strong hand - either KK or AA based off the 3b size since lots of players do the same.  Taking account of population tendencies can often be important when you are playing largely against unknown players because you don't want to do something that's going to be percieved a certain way. Anyway, that's enough comment from me about that hand!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Valid points Ivan, although to me a 800 raise, a call and then a 3bet to 2.4k does not deviate sufficiently from "expected norms" to suggest strength or weakness.

That is my opinion however, you feel, it suggests strength and sometimes that will be correct, but, perhaps not all the time. I think 2.4k could be many peoples standard squeeze bet size. I do agree with you however, that good players, will notice little nuances like this after a while. But until it goes to showdown, it is difficult for them to ascertain what the differences represent. And when they do see enough hands at showdown, then the meta game comes in and we can mix it up a bit.

Interestingly enough. My son Gary and I have differing opinions on 3bet sizes, with his opinion being that mine are too BIG in general.

In this spot with ANY 3betting hand, Gary would "NEVER" make it more than 2.4k. If there was just one raise to 800 (and no caller), he'd 3bet to something like 1.9k as standard where as I'd make it 2.2k ish. He just prefers to play more small ball than me, and it appears I play more small ball than you and many others.

(Hopefully he doesn't mind me telling everyone this. The point I am trying to reiterate is that the "norms" are style dependant) :=)

Cheers,

G