MTT changes & discussion thread

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : I'm really not sure what the point is? Should £55 DYMs start with 10k stacks and £5 DYMs start with the standard 2k? I think the Roller is back from next month so will return as the flagship weekly MTT for the site boasting the biggest starting stack and longest structure. You obviously equate buy in to start stack but I'm not sure they are mutually exclusive.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

What else could dictate the starting stack other than the buy in. At the WSOP they have a rigid formula where the starting stack for every single tournament is relative to the buy in. The main event having the largest starting stack and the costliest buy in. They also run tournaments with many different formats, rather than one particular type, which all seem to be quite popular.

So I think the points are as follows,

The tournament schedule was overdue for a review as Tikay stated.

The starting stacks should reflect the buy in. The bigger the buy in, the bigger the starting stack should be.

There should be tornaments of a different format available.

The structure and levels are designed to calculate the running time for each tournament.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : What else could dictate the starting stack other than the buy in. At the WSOP they have a rigid formula where the starting stack for every single tournament is relative to the buy in. The main event having the largest starting stack and the costliest buy in. They also run tournaments with many different formats, rather than one particular type, which all seem to be quite popular. So I think the points are as follows, The tournament schedule was overdue for a review as Tikay stated. The starting stacks should reflect the buy in. The bigger the buy in, the bigger the starting stack should be. There should be tornaments of a different format available. The structure and levels are designed to calculate the running time for each tournament.
Posted by HAYSIE

What they do over at the WSOP really shouldn't have much or any influence on what goes on at Sky poker. The ME at the WSOP isn't the costliest buy in either (think there are 3/4 events with higher buy ins off the top of my head), but it's their flagship event so it gets the longest structure. Just like the roller is the flagship event here and gets the longest structure, but equally it isn't the costliest MTT when Sky run the high roller £220 on a Tuesday.

I agree that there could be more variation in the tournaments offered (but Sky will argue the figures do the talking). I don't agree that the buy in should dictate the starting stack as they don't need to go hand in hand.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : What they do over at the WSOP really shouldn't have much or any influence on what goes on at Sky poker. The ME at the WSOP isn't the costliest buy in either (think there are 3/4 events with higher buy ins off the top of my head), but it's their flagship event so it gets the longest structure. Just like the roller is the flagship event here and gets the longest structure, but equally it isn't the costliest MTT when Sky run the high roller £220 on a Tuesday. I agree that there could be more variation in the tournaments offered (but Sky will argue the figures do the talking). I don't agree that the buy in should dictate the starting stack as they don't need to go hand in hand.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

If the buy in does not dictate the starting stack then what should?

Why on earth would you have two tournaments running side by side, with virtually the same structure and levels, the same starting stack, with one of them having a buy in of less than a third of the other.

I mentioned the WSOP as their their tournament buy ins are calculated on a completely logical basis. You get an exact number of chips per $100 of buy in. A system that seems sensible and logical. There have been times in the past when Sky have pretty much followed this logic.

 Not sure what makes any tournament the flagship. Is it the biggest starting stack, the biggest buy in, the best value for money, the best guarantee, the biggest price pool,?

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : If the buy in does not dictate the starting stack then what should? Why on earth would you have two tournaments running side by side, with virtually the same structure and levels, the same starting stack, with one of them having a buy in of less than a third of the other. I mentioned the WSOP as their their tournament buy ins are calculated on a completely logical basis. You get an exact number of chips per $100 of buy in. A system that seems sensible and logical. There have been times in the past when Sky have pretty much followed this logic.  Not sure what makes any tournament the flagship. Is it the biggest starting stack, the biggest buy in, the best value for money, the best guarantee, the biggest price pool,?
Posted by HAYSIE

Wouldnt it just make sense to have 2,000 starting stack for every £22 tourmament, which is mostly the case anyway. 3,000 for every £33 tournament, 5,000 for £55, and 10,000 for every £110, and 20,000 for any £220.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Wouldnt it just make sense to have 2,000 starting stack for every £22 tourmament, which is mostly the case anyway. 3,000 for every £33 tournament, 5,000 for £55, and 10,000 for every £110, and 20,000 for any £220.
Posted by HAYSIE

The WSOP shouldnt have world dominance on common sense.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : The WSOP shouldnt have world dominance on common sense.
Posted by HAYSIE

The levels would then dictate how long each tournament would last,

hhyftrftdr

Why should the buy in dictate the start stack? On Stars, all their 'big $xxx' tourneys start with 5k chips, be that the big $4.40 or the big $215 and all the ones inbetween.

The more expensive the MTT is the better the structure should generally be (IMO), but that means levels and structure and not necessarily the starting stack. You could kick off with 1million chips but if the first level is 25/50k then its not gonna be very good. Equally you could start with 1k and have the first level as 2/4 and it would play out quite nicely.

And as Scouse said above, the changes are just for this monthly promo surrounding BHs.

We obviously come at this from different angles and we're not gonna see eye to eye so I'll leave it there

unknown_username

I've read this debate and Haitch does have a point.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

Why should the buy in dictate the start stack? On Stars, all their 'big $xxx' tourneys start with 5k chips, be that the big $4.40 or the big $215 and all the ones inbetween. The more expensive the MTT is the better the structure should generally be (IMO), but that means levels and structure and not necessarily the starting stack. You could kick off with 1million chips but if the first level is 25/50k then its not gonna be very good. Equally you could start with 1k and have the first level as 2/4 and it would play out quite nicely. And as Scouse said above, the changes are just for this monthly promo surrounding BHs. We obviously come at this from different angles and we're not gonna see eye to eye so I'll leave it there
Posted by hhyftrftdr

If it is not the buy ins that should dictate the starting stack, then what should? It surely shouldnt be pot luck?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : If it is not the buy ins that should dictate the starting stack, then what should? It surely shouldnt be pot luck?
Posted by HAYSIE

Imagine the scenario....

MTTx and MTTy both start at 8pm, both cost £55, both GTD at £10k, and both have 10 minute levels.

MTTx is a 1k start stack with blinds kicking off at 2/4 and increase accordingly

MTTy is a 1m start stack with blinds kicking off at 25k/50k and increase accordingly.

You are only allowed to reg one.....which one would you prefer to pay £55 to play?

SoLack

One thing is for sure- wall to wall bounty hunters for all medium to high buy-ins is tedious.  The 745 is the only thing that is slightly maintaining my interest.  Roll on February.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Imagine the scenario.... MTTx and MTTy both start at 8pm, both cost £55, both GTD at £10k, and both have 10 minute levels. MTTx is a 1k start stack with blinds kicking off at 2/4 and increase accordingly MTTy is a 1m start stack with blinds kicking off at 25k/50k and increase accordingly. You are only allowed to reg one.....which one would you prefer to pay £55 to play?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I am not sure that anything will be accomplished by debating hypothetical exaggerated scenarios. I have not suggested turning deep stacks into turbos, nor advocated changing any structures or levels, and none as exaggerated as the examples you quote exist on any site I have seen.

Two examples actually exist on Sky now. They start only 15 minutes apart, both have 12 minute blinds, exactly the same starting stacks of 5,000 chips, similar blinds from the start, exactly the same guaranteed prize pools. The only thing that really differs is the buy ins, one is £33 and the other is £110.

If it was solely down to me all the £33 tournaments would have 3,000 starting stacks, and all the £110 would have 10,000, and in this case one would be a bounty hunter and one wouldnt.

If I could only play one of the tournaments that actually exist, but with the stacks I have suggested, I as a mediocre player would choose the cheaper one with more players and a bigger chance of cashing. However if I were a better player I might choose the other one, with a big stack and a better chance of reaching a good position and a much bigger cash.

hhyftrftdr

The 19.45 has been added for the promo! As has been pointed out to you numerous times. I don't think its a permanent addition to the schedule.

Yes my examples were exaggerated but it just showcases that its the starting stack in relation to the blinds that matters, not just the starting stack figure alone which is an arbitrary number.

You'd choose MTTx, I'd choose MTTx, everyone would I'm sure because of its structure, which is the most important aspect, regardless of if you start with 1k, 5k, 25m.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

The 19.45 has been added for the promo! As has been pointed out to you numerous times. I don't think its a permanent addition to the schedule. Yes my examples were exaggerated but it just showcases that its the starting stack in relation to the blinds that matters, not just the starting stack figure alone which is an arbitrary number. You'd choose MTTx, I'd choose MTTx, everyone would I'm sure because of its structure, which is the most important aspect, regardless of if you start with 1k, 5k, 25m.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

This is becoming really hard work, and after writing this I cant be bothered to continue any further.

Firstly I have not suggested altering any structures. Different structures already exist. I am happy with and agree with all the existing structures. The 10.30 has 5 minute blinds because it is a turbo, the 9pm has 10 minute blinds which is fine and the two main tournaments have 12 minute blinds which I have no wish to argue with. Nor am I disputing the starting blind levels. They seem pretty standard, and see no point in disputing them.

What I do have an argument with is the starting stacks. If you compare reasonable tournaments that have the same format on any site, the bigger buy ins will usually have larger starting stacks. I dont think that many players expect the bigger buy in tournaments to have lesser starting stacks, and may see the starting stack as part of the value for money of the particular tournament. I think this is the case irrespective of how long the tournament was set to run. Whether it was a one off, or just running for a month. If it is wrong, it is wrong, however long it is meant to run for. So dont be telling me it has got to do with some promotion.

To take one of your silly examples who would play the WSOP main event for $10,000 if the starting stack was 1,000 chips, and if this was the case absolutely anyone could win it. This would be the case whatever the structure

Sky seem to take an arbitrary view on starting stacks. The Sunday tournament was the only £110 buy in of the week, had the same structure as every other Open during the week, but had the biggest starting stack. As the only difference between all the other Opens was the buy in, using a process of elimination you would have to conclude that the extra starting chips were because of the bigger buy in.

I dont think it would have been sensible to have the biggest starting stack on the Tuesday Open as the buy in was only £11 and had the same structure. Wouldnt people have commented on getting more chips on Tuesday for £11, than they did on Sunday for £110.

Yet Sky introduced a £220 buy in tournament, with virtually the same structure and only a 5,000 starting stack. How could this make sense to any reasonable person, double the buy in, vitually the same structure, and half the chips in comparison to Sunday.

The current 7.45 tournament which runs every day also has the same buy in, same structure and half the chips. Some people seem to see this as ok because there may only be 31 of them. Why they could say this completely baffles me.

Then you have the 8.00 which has the exactly the same structure, exactly the same guaranteed prize pool, exactly the same starting stack, but only costs £33 not £110.

I believe that the following starting stacks should be applied to all tournaments, and the structures used to differentiate between the various formats.

£22    2,000

£33    3,000

£55    5,000

£110  10,000

£220  20,000

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

I've read this debate and Haitch does have a point.
Posted by mumsie

thank you

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Imagine the scenario.... MTTx and MTTy both start at 8pm, both cost £55, both GTD at £10k, and both have 10 minute levels. MTTx is a 1k start stack with blinds kicking off at 2/4 and increase accordingly MTTy is a 1m start stack with blinds kicking off at 25k/50k and increase accordingly. You are only allowed to reg one.....which one would you prefer to pay £55 to play?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Imagine another scenario two tournaments absolutely the same in every way, identical, no difference. Except for the starting stack, one has double the starting stack of the other.Which would YOU play?

Lambert180

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Imagine another scenario two tournaments absolutely the same in every way, identical, no difference. Except for the starting stack, one has double the starting stack of the other.Which would YOU play?
Posted by HAYSIE

 

I think what Harry is saying is that....

10k starting stack when the first blind levels are....

100/200

150/300

200/400

250/500

Is identical in terms of how it plays as....

1k starting stack when the first blind levels are

10/20

15/30

20/40

25/50

The relevant stat is number of BBs. I assume you are just saying you think bigger BI comps should generally play deeper/have more BBs, and Harry is saying that just increasing the starting stack won't always fix that cos it's a balance between starting stack AND blind levels that determine how deep it plays.

Tbf it does seem a picky thing to point out though cos increasing the starting stack WOULD make the comp deeper assuming the blind levels stayed the same (and you haven't mentioned asking for bigger blind levels too)

Jac35

I play rebuys on Sunday's and Wednesday's 

On Sunday it's 20k starting stack with 100/200 starting blinds

On Wednesday it's 200k starting stack with 1000/2000 starting blinds

The players prefer the Wednesday game citing the more play in it as the reason

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : thank you
Posted by HAYSIE

Pretty sure he agrees with me and not you.

hhyftrftdr

Lets be honest, it's pretty simple stuff to get your head around.

The start stack, in isloation, is irrelevant. The start stack in relation to the blind levels is important. It literally is as simple as that.

If you can't graps this concept then so be it.

aussie09

there will be one constant, everything else is a variable.

it doesn't really matter which is the constant, what matters is how the variables relate to the constant and to each other.

you can choose starting stacks as the constant.  it makes no difference to that particular mtt. 

where it makes a difference is when you use it to calibrate what you do.  that is, when you are trying to understand play between different mtts. 

haysie and harry are both right.  they are making different arguements with the same material.

weecheez1

Silly question time in the sats the first round is 3000 chips with blinds 15 and 30 and the semi is 2000 and blinds at 10 and 20   

what structure gives you more play or are they both the same 

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

there will be one constant, everything else is a variable. it doesn't really matter which is the constant, what matters is how the variables relate to the constant and to each other. you can choose starting stacks as the constant.  it makes no difference to that particular mtt.  where it makes a difference is when you use it to calibrate what you do.  that is, when you are trying to understand play between different mtts.  haysie and harry are both right.  they are making different arguements with the same material.
Posted by aussie09

I just cant be very good at explaining myself.

I only referred to existing tournaments, or those that existed until very recently.

I never criticised the structures, and said many times that the structures were fine.

The questions I have asked have related to the starting stacks, in particular reference to tournaments that have replaced other tournaments.

If we start with the Sunday Roller. What I see is a tournament that has been replaced. It has been  replaced with a Bounty Hunter tournament, because practically every tournament is a Bounty Hunter at the moment. Everything else is exactly the same, structure, starting blinds, guaranteed prize pool, buy in. Everything that is except for the starting stack. The starting stack was halved.

It is now running every day alongside another tournament which is identical except for the buy in. To buy into this identical tornament will cost you less than one third of the cost of the other one.

Sky introduced another tournament which had a£220 buy in with half the chips.

Sky already use the blind increases to speed up or slow down tournaments.

The Wsop have a rigid formula for calculating starting stacks, and use the structures to differentiate the tournaments. Currently on Sky the timng of the blind increases differentiate whether a tournament is a turbo, regular, deepstack etc, not the starting stack.

The Sunday Roller replaced a £55 buy in tournament with a 5,000 starting stack and exactly the same structure. So they just happened to double the buy in and the chip stack to end up with the Roller.

I dont wish to change any structures, turn turbos into deepstacks. I would just like the starting stacks to be right. The structures are in place.

jordz16

Its completely fair to dislike BH's. I personally like them, but i do prefer freezeouts, but this months MTT's revolves around a BH promotion so it seems like the worst time possible to complain about them.. If the 7.45 BH had the same structure and a 10k starting stack then i believe over the course of the month less people would play them with a 3am finish time likely. Most people will make allowances for a Sunday given thats the flagship evening for MTT's but the average player working 9-5 wont want to participate in an MTT that wont finish til roughly 3am... also The structure has seemed fine to me, on saturday when we approached the bubble the average stack was 45bbs which offers a huge amount of play.

Its completely fine to dislike certain changes but my guess is Sky are just trying to get the maximum numbers into each event which for a competant MTT player like yourself should be the main thing. 

Tikay10

For the record, as far as I am currently aware. the Sunday Major has NOT been replaced by a Bounty Hunter.

It has been rested for one month, to allow the Bounty Hunter Champion Promo to take place.
 
The only info I heard - which was posted on the forum before BH Champion commenced - was that the Sunday Major was likely to return in February.    

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread :   I think what Harry is saying is that.... 10k starting stack when the first blind levels are.... 100/200 150/300 200/400 250/500 Is identical in terms of how it plays as.... 1k starting stack when the first blind levels are 10/20 15/30 20/40 25/50 The relevant stat is number of BBs. I assume you are just saying you think bigger BI comps should generally play deeper/have more BBs, and Harry is saying that just increasing the starting stack won't always fix that cos it's a balance between starting stack AND blind levels that determine how deep it plays. Tbf it does seem a picky thing to point out though cos increasing the starting stack WOULD make the comp deeper assuming the blind levels stayed the same (and you haven't mentioned asking for bigger blind levels too)
Posted by Lambert180

I have not argued this. I have argued about tournaments that have structures, like the two tonight. They are exactly the same.No difference other than the buy in. They have the same starting blinds, same levels, same guaranteed prize pool, but one has a £33 buy in the other £110.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

I play rebuys on Sunday's and Wednesday's  On Sunday it's 20k starting stack with 100/200 starting blinds On Wednesday it's 200k starting stack with 1000/2000 starting blinds The players prefer the Wednesday game citing the more play in it as the reason
Posted by Jac35

Good point and a good reason.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

For the record, as far as I am currently aware. the Sunday Major has NOT been replaced by a Bounty Hunter. It has been rested for one month, to allow the Bounty Hunter Champion Promo to take place.   The only info I heard - which was posted on the forum before BH Champion commenced - was that the Sunday Major was likely to return in February.    
Posted by Tikay10

Sorry I should have said, temporarily replaced. Maybe.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : I have not argued this. I have argued about tournaments that have structures, like the two tonight. They are exactly the same.No difference other than the buy in. They have the same starting blinds, same levels, same guaranteed prize pool, but one has a £33 buy in the other £110.
Posted by HAYSIE

Ok yeah so 2 different MTTs, both BHs, with the same starting stacks, blind levels, same clock, just one is £33 and one is £110... what is the problem with that/what do you want? 

You want the £33 BH to have a worse structure or the £110 to have a better structure? Presumably you want the £110 to have a 10k starting stack instead? If so, do you want the blinds levels to stay the same so that it plays very deep for the first few levels?

I'm not being having a go btw, I am just trying to find out if it's that you want a better (deeper/slower) structure OR it's just that you think a bigger BI should have a bigger number of chips even if the structure is the same. Like iirc WSOP always give 3x the BI as the starting stack so the $1k events are 3k chips, the $10k main starts with 30k chips, and the $1mil 1 drop starts with a stupid amount of chips... but what's that matter if the blinds are just changed accordingly?

So are you just after bigger chip numbers for bigger BIs (which really is meaningless) or are you saying the bigger BIs are not deep enough?

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Ok yeah so 2 different MTTs, both BHs, with the same starting stacks, blind levels, same clock, just one is £33 and one is £110... what is the problem with that/what do you want?  You want the £33 BH to have a worse structure or the £110 to have a better structure? Presumably you want the £110 to have a 10k starting stack instead? If so, do you want the blinds levels to stay the same so that it plays very deep for the first few levels? I'm not being having a go btw, I am just trying to find out if it's that you want a better (deeper/slower) structure OR it's just that you think a bigger BI should have a bigger number of chips even if the structure is the same. Like iirc WSOP always give 3x the BI as the starting stack so the $1k events are 3k chips, the $10k main starts with 30k chips, and the $1mil 1 drop starts with a stupid amount of chips... but what's that matter if the blinds are just changed accordingly? So are you just after bigger chip numbers for bigger BIs (which really is meaningless) or are you saying the bigger BIs are not deep enough?
Posted by Lambert180

If you give the £110, 10,000 chips it becomes the Sunday Roller, without changing anything else.