MTT changes & discussion thread

Tikay10

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : This is becoming really hard work, and after writing this I cant be bothered to continue any further. Firstly I have not suggested altering any structures. Different structures already exist. I am happy with and agree with all the existing structures. The 10.30 has 5 minute blinds because it is a turbo, the 9pm has 10 minute blinds which is fine and the two main tournaments have 12 minute blinds which I have no wish to argue with. Nor am I disputing the starting blind levels. They seem pretty standard, and see no point in disputing them. What I do have an argument with is the starting stacks. If you compare reasonable tournaments that have the same format on any site, the bigger buy ins will usually have larger starting stacks. I dont think that many players expect the bigger buy in tournaments to have lesser starting stacks, and may see the starting stack as part of the value for money of the particular tournament. I think this is the case irrespective of how long the tournament was set to run. Whether it was a one off, or just running for a month. If it is wrong, it is wrong, however long it is meant to run for. So dont be telling me it has got to do with some promotion. To take one of your silly examples who would play the WSOP main event for $10,000 if the starting stack was 1,000 chips, and if this was the case absolutely anyone could win it. This would be the case whatever the structure Sky seem to take an arbitrary view on starting stacks. The Sunday tournament was the only £110 buy in of the week, had the same structure as every other Open during the week, but had the biggest starting stack. As the only difference between all the other Opens was the buy in, using a process of elimination you would have to conclude that the extra starting chips were because of the bigger buy in. I dont think it would have been sensible to have the biggest starting stack on the Tuesday Open as the buy in was only £11 and had the same structure. Wouldnt people have commented on getting more chips on Tuesday for £11, than they did on Sunday for £110. Yet Sky introduced a £220 buy in tournament, with virtually the same structure and only a 5,000 starting stack. How could this make sense to any reasonable person, double the buy in, vitually the same structure, and half the chips in comparison to Sunday. The current 7.45 tournament which runs every day also has the same buy in, same structure and half the chips. Some people seem to see this as ok because there may only be 31 of them. Why they could say this completely baffles me. Then you have the 8.00 which has the exactly the same structure, exactly the same guaranteed prize pool, exactly the same starting stack, but only costs £33 not £110. I believe that the following starting stacks should be applied to all tournaments, and the structures used to differentiate between the various formats. £22    2,000 £33    3,000 £55    5,000 £110  10,000 £220  20,000
Posted by HAYSIE

So by logical progression, what are you suggesting the chips stacks should be in a....

£10 MTT

£5 MTT

£2 MTT

£1 MTT

Freeroll

I actually don't see why mixing it up a bit is terrible, equally, I hear what you say. 

I'd certainly be set against the logical progression suggested above in the smaller MTT's. The fun players deserve some consideration at the very least.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Ok yeah so 2 different MTTs, both BHs, with the same starting stacks, blind levels, same clock, just one is £33 and one is £110... what is the problem with that/what do you want?  You want the £33 BH to have a worse structure or the £110 to have a better structure? Presumably you want the £110 to have a 10k starting stack instead? If so, do you want the blinds levels to stay the same so that it plays very deep for the first few levels? I'm not being having a go btw, I am just trying to find out if it's that you want a better (deeper/slower) structure OR it's just that you think a bigger BI should have a bigger number of chips even if the structure is the same. Like iirc WSOP always give 3x the BI as the starting stack so the $1k events are 3k chips, the $10k main starts with 30k chips, and the $1mil 1 drop starts with a stupid amount of chips... but what's that matter if the blinds are just changed accordingly? So are you just after bigger chip numbers for bigger BIs (which really is meaningless) or are you saying the bigger BIs are not deep enough?
Posted by Lambert180

Why do you think The WSOP do this? Is it because it is a fair and reasonable way to run the biggest poker tournaments in the world, or do they just do it to annoy people.

Sky__James

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : If you give the £110, 10,000 chips it becomes the Sunday Roller, without changing anything else.
Posted by HAYSIE

No it doesn't. The Sunday Major has 15 minute levels. Jordz hit the nail on the head as to why I didn't apply the same structure to the BH High Roller.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Why do you think The WSOP do this? Is it because it is a fair and reasonable way to run the biggest poker tournaments in the world, or do they just do it to annoy people.
Posted by HAYSIE

Probably because fish love having more chips and fish make up a huuuuge amount of the customer base (that includes people who follow the live updates etc and want to hear big numbers in big events). Paul (Jac35) summed it up exactly, players in his local prefer playing with a 10x bigger starting stack even though the blinds are 10x bigger too because they think it allows for more play... in reality it makes 0 difference to stack depths or how it plays because the number of BBs is the same but they just love having lots of chips.

You could give everyone a starting stack of 200 chips if you wanted but just make the starting blinds 1/2 so we still start with 100BB but 200 chips sounds a bit cr@p. People wanna brag about having a few hundred thousands chips or even into the millions, it doesn't sound as good bragging about having 1500 chips (even if that's way more than the millions in terms of BBs).

If you wanted you could make every single MTT on here from £1 BIs to £220 BIs all have 5.000 chips, and you could still make them all totally different structured MTTs. 

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : So by logical progression, what are you suggesting the chips stacks should be in a.... £10 MTT £5 MTT £2 MTT £1 MTT Freeroll I actually don't see why mixing it up a bit is terrible, equally, I hear what you say.  I'd certainly be set against the logical progression suggested above in the smaller MTT's. The fun players deserve some consideration at the very least.
Posted by Tikay10

True you would have to have a minimum. That is why I didnt go lower than £22. Sky actually complies with this to a certain extent, but other areas seem less explainable.

Most £22 have a 2,000 stack ( 2 dont)

All £33 have a 5,000 stack
All £55 have a 5,000 stack (there is only 1 at present)

All £110 have a 5,000 stack

The £22 seem strange as the 7.30 £1500 guaranteed has a 3,000 starting stack, but the £2,000 guaranteed at 9.00 have exactly the same levels, starting blinds, but only 2,000 chips. This is even though the second tournament probably attracts more players, hence the bigger guarantee. Yet the £22 at midnight which has a £1,000 guarantee is the second £22 with a 3,000 starting stack.

If the £110 had a 10,000 starting stack, all the new £55 have 5,000, and I wouldnt really care if the £33 opens started with 3 or 5,000. It doesnt seem right to have 2 of the £22, all the £33, £55, and £110 having the same starting stack.

StayOrGo

Hi.

I haven't read all this thread, so apologies if it's already been covered.

I think the Bounty Hunter Champion MTT's have been great!

I would really like the daily £110 BH to stay after January.

I appreciate, if you did this, that the guarantee may have to be lowered and I also appreciate that you wouldn't always be able to run leader board promos each time.

However, I think having a daily £110BH at 7.45pm, even with just a £5K guarantee would be good for Sky and also for the medium/higher stake players.

Cheers,

G

GregUK

Hi all,

Since I'm here with SKY the current promotion is the best....bounty hunter champion really motivate to play every day plus the prizes are ok if you get few bounties. 

I know that more people said thats good promo as well so well done sky and IMO you really should consider to keep that leadrboard forever....

Regards

Greg

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Probably because fish love having more chips and fish make up a huuuuge amount of the customer base (that includes people who follow the live updates etc and want to hear big numbers in big events). Paul (Jac35) summed it up exactly, players in his local prefer playing with a 10x bigger starting stack even though the blinds are 10x bigger too because they think it allows for more play... in reality it makes 0 difference to stack depths or how it plays because the number of BBs is the same but they just love having lots of chips. You could give everyone a starting stack of 200 chips if you wanted but just make the starting blinds 1/2 so we still start with 100BB but 200 chips sounds a bit cr@p. People wanna brag about having a few hundred thousands chips or even into the millions, it doesn't sound as good bragging about having 1500 chips (even if that's way more than the millions in terms of BBs). If you wanted you could make every single MTT on here from £1 BIs to £220 BIs all have 5.000 chips, and you could still make them all totally different structured MTTs. 
Posted by Lambert180

That seems a well thought out argument. You have identified what the huge majority of players or as far as you are concerned, fish are looking for, and then argue against going along with them. You would think that every poker site was determined to restrict their membership rather than increase it.

We know what they all want, but we are not going to give it to them. Just lucky youre not running it.

The question I originally asked was about two identical tournaments 15 minutes apart, that were absolutely identical except for the buy in. There was no need for lengthy explanations of what  levels and starting blinds do, because they were and still are identical.

The only other regular £110 buy in  was on Sunday and had a 10,000 starting stack. I thought along with the rest of the fish that this was reasonable. We cant help it we are just fish.

Just out of interest when Sky changed this tournament to £110 buy in from £55, they also changed the starting stack from 5,000 to 10,000. Why do you think they this? Must have been to keep the fish happy?

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : No it doesn't. The Sunday Major has 15 minute levels. Jordz hit the nail on the head as to why I didn't apply the same structure to the BH High Roller.
Posted by Sky__James

So if we compare the Sunday tournament to the 7.45 tournaments on weekdays then you have reduced the levels by 3 mins, just about halved the guarantee on the prize pool, halved the chip stack, and carried on charging the same buy in. So if it was value for money in the first place, what is it now?

What do I know I am just a fish.

If I was your boss though instead of a fish, I might have wished you hadnt pointed that out in this context.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

Hi all, Since I'm here with SKY the current promotion is the best....bounty hunter champion really motivate to play every day plus the prizes are ok if you get few bounties.  I know that more people said thats good promo as well so well done sky and IMO you really should consider to keep that leadrboard forever.... Regards Greg
Posted by GregUK

I agree, would be wonderful if they could!

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : So if we compare the Sunday tournament to the 7.45 tournaments on weekdays then you have reduced the levels by 3 mins, just about halved the guarantee on the prize pool, halved the chip stack, and carried on charging the same buy in. So if it was value for money in the first place, what is it now? What do I know I am just a fish. If I was your boss though instead of a fish, I might have wished you hadnt pointed that out in this context.
Posted by HAYSIE

Why are you comparing them though? They are 2 completely seperate MTTs.

Lambert180

Lol I'm not calling you a fish, or arguing against the idea of bigger stacks, I just wasn't sure which side of the fence you were on. Fwiw, Party since partnering with DTD have gone down that route of doing loads of comps with 50k starting stacks, they've just bumped up the blinds at the start so they play the same but all the live players who are used to having lots of chips (number wise) are happy despite the fact it makes no real difference.

I didn't know if you were arguing for deeper structures for bigger BIs (which is a perfectly fair argument) OR bigger numbers of chips just cos it looks/sounds good. It sounds like you want more chips and the same blind levels as they are now, so you are arguing for a deeper structure (rather than just bigger numbers) so that makes sense, although obviously not everyone will agree.

Essexphil

Interesting discussion.

However, maybe I've missed it, but when did the guarantees drop to 8k for the 7:45 HR? No-one on my table in the HR was aware....

Tikay10

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

Interesting discussion. However, maybe I've missed it, but when did the guarantees drop to 8k for the 7:45 HR? No-one on my table in the HR was aware....
Posted by Essexphil

I'm guessing they don't read the Forum, or the Promo page then Phil.

I mentioned it on this very thread on Friday, my post at top of Page 11, @ 0953.

The Promo Page has also been changed to reflect it.

I always try to make these changes known, good or bad. Not much more we can do really than announce on Forum & change the Promo page.

It's a shame it had to be reduced, but it was overlaying every night, so the players can't really complain as they did OK out of it.     

Tikay10

Here's what I wrote, in case any ABC Geriatrics missed it. To be fair, the thread did get a little de-railed.

"The Main Event is a headache, too, so for weeks 3 & 4 (which starts on Monday), the Bounty Hunter Champion Main Event Guarantees will be;

Mondays through Wednesday - £8,000

Thursday through Sunday - £10,000"

Jac35

What do you think the reason is for Sky having to reduce the guarantees on a regular basis now?

I get that in the Summer people play less but the winter months are generally acknowledged as the best times for UK based online poker.

Not trolling. It's just that i'm surprised as we hear often enough that Sky is having year on year growth. Is Poker itself growing on Sky or is it that figure across all platforms?

Essexphil

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

Here's what I wrote, in case any ABC Geriatrics missed it. To be fair, the thread did get a little de-railed. "The Main Event is a headache, too, so for weeks 3 & 4 (which starts on Monday), the Bounty Hunter Champion Main Event Guarantees will be; Mondays through Wednesday - £8,000 Thursday through Sunday - £10,000"
Posted by Tikay10

Didn't miss it-that is not it. That is the 8pm-the 7:45 has gone down as well.

Roll on February!

Tikay10

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Didn't miss it-that is not it. That is the 8pm-the 7:45 has gone down as well. Roll on February!
Posted by Essexphil

I mentioned that on Friday too, before I mentioned the High Roller, 2 minutes earlier, foot of Page 10.

Sorry for quoting the incorrect post.

MattBates

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : So if we compare the Sunday tournament to the 7.45 tournaments on weekdays then you have reduced the levels by 3 mins, just about halved the guarantee on the prize pool, halved the chip stack, and carried on charging the same buy in. So if it was value for money in the first place, what is it now? What do I know I am just a fish. If I was your boss though instead of a fish, I might have wished you hadnt pointed that out in this context.
Posted by HAYSIE

A bh tournament and a freezeout play completely differently given the bh element so not sure why you are comparing the two apart from the fact they have the same buy in.

Tikay10

This is what I posted, foot of Page 10 on Friday.....

"The Bounty Hunter Champion High Roller continues to struggle, & so for weeks 3 & 4 the Guarantees will be as follows:

Monday to Friday High Roller, £8,000.

Saturday & Sunday will remain as per previous post, that is to say £10,000 on Saturdays & £15,000 on Sundays. " 

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

This is what I posted, foot of Page 10 on Friday..... "The Bounty Hunter Champion High Roller continues to struggle, & so for weeks 3 & 4 the Guarantees will be as follows: Monday to Friday High Roller, £8,000 . Saturday & Sunday will remain as per previous post, that is to say £10,000 on Saturdays & £15,000 on Sundays. " 
Posted by Tikay10

Yes it's been a real shame, for Sky more than anyone else, that this hasn't been getting the numbers.

I do hope we can continue to have a daily £110 BH going into February, even if it only had a £4K guarantee.

We must be able to consistently get 40 runners for it surely.

Cheers,

G

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

Here's what I wrote, in case any ABC Geriatrics missed it. To be fair, the thread did get a little de-railed. "The Main Event is a headache, too, so for weeks 3 & 4 (which starts on Monday), the Bounty Hunter Champion Main Event Guarantees will be; Mondays through Wednesday - £8,000 Thursday through Sunday - £10,000"
Posted by Tikay10

This is not what you have said in your most recent posts?

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Yes it's been a real shame, for Sky more than anyone else, that this hasn't been getting the numbers. I do hope we can continue to have a daily £110 BH going into February, even if it only had a £4K guarantee. We must be able to consistently get 40 runners for it surely. Cheers, G
Posted by StayOrGo

There was a time when the £55 at 9.00 was guaranteed at £5,000.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Why are you comparing them though? They are 2 completely seperate MTTs.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

And so popular the guarantees are dropping?

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

What do you think the reason is for Sky having to reduce the guarantees on a regular basis now? I get that in the Summer people play less but the winter months are generally acknowledged as the best times for UK based online poker. Not trolling. It's just that i'm surprised as we hear often enough that Sky is having year on year growth. Is Poker itself growing on Sky or is it that figure across all platforms?
Posted by Jac35

Perhaps they will come up with some more attractive tournaments during this review, and maybe more satellites for the bigger buy ins.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : Why are you comparing them though? They are 2 completely seperate MTTs.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Why cant you compare them?

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : A bh tournament and a freezeout play completely differently given the bh element so not sure why you are comparing the two apart from the fact they have the same buy in.
Posted by MattBates

Even though I am a big fish, I do understand that freezeouts and bounty hunters are different. If the starting stack doesnt matter, then why did Sky double the starting stack, when they doubled the buy in on the Sunday tournament?

Also if the format of the 7.45 tournament was popular, then why are the guarantees being reduced?

Why are the guarantees being quite easily met a quarter of an hour later with a £33 buy in?

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : This is not what you have said in your most recent posts?
Posted by HAYSIE

You said Monday to Friday is 8k.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

This is what I posted, foot of Page 10 on Friday..... "The Bounty Hunter Champion High Roller continues to struggle, & so for weeks 3 & 4 the Guarantees will be as follows: Monday to Friday High Roller, £8,000 . Saturday & Sunday will remain as per previous post, that is to say £10,000 on Saturdays & £15,000 on Sundays. " 
Posted by Tikay10

Why cant we have 15 minute blinds, and 10.000 chips just on Sundays.

Is it 8k Monday to Wednesday or Monday to Friday because you have said both.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread:

In Response to Re: MTT changes & discussion thread : No it doesn't. The Sunday Major has 15 minute levels. Jordz hit the nail on the head as to why I didn't apply the same structure to the BH High Roller.
Posted by Sky__James

Assuming that is the case, shouldnt you run the Sunday Major on a Friday or a Saturday.